Overwatch-specific builds

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Bu6613man
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:44 pm

Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Bu6613man »

Hi! Are overwatch rangers, or specialists, any good?

I was having a discussion on builds over on youtube (Northernlion), and I ran into some disagreement. I think that overwatcher dedicated soldiers go well with aggressive classes like assualts or technicals. But someone else said that they were eventually going become useless.

I watch xwynns and I do notice that he hasn't specced any of these. Which does suggest to me that they might fall off lategame. What do you think?

Ps. I got an unusually high aim, high mobility specialist, and overwatch-specced her. Result: she's my favorite soldier.
cmdrspyker92
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Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:48 am

Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by cmdrspyker92 »

Well the way LW is designed, is that the later the game gets, the more health happy the aliens get which means you tend to over devote to killing things that turn before they kill you. There's also certain really annoying ones that get stuff like Lightning Reflexes and Ghost Walker that make it difficult to set strong overwatch traps.
Spoiler: show
That said, one of my favorite builds from LW1 was the "Shocktrooper Rocketeer", which was an overwatch rocketeer with a buttload of rockets. They were crazy squishy as I didn't pick up any defensive perks with them (going Ranger, Rapid Reaction, Shredder, Opportunist, Shock and Awe, Tandem) but they were the ultimate heavy weapon support for my actual tanks (which were genemodded assaults, and goliaths) it was a crazy successful strategy, as the rocketeers provided the raw damage necessary to flatten huge pods before my tanks were overwhelmed by volume of fire (mind you, this was on legendary afterall). They were however, very concept focused and inflexible, packing battle rifles, extended mags and two additional rockets, meaning my offensive movements were more like a slow rolling mechanized offensive then a lightning fast surgical strike. And if the aliens ever decided that my juicy tanks weren't the best target in the world, it caused problems.
In regards to LW2 classes that can pull it off, you have a suppression build with the gunner, and 2 traditional overwatch builds between the Ranger and Specialist. The ranger has a poor trade off for it because you have to trade nearly every aim and/or defensive perk to have a solid "empty your entire clip every turn" build for it the perks just don't line up very well for the overwatch tree, especially towards the end of the tree. You also don't get to choose what to hit, which can be problematic at times. Covering fire will also never be a legitimate perk without some form of buff to overwatch shots to targets in cover.

The specialist is even worse, because you have to give up combat or medical protocol to get the "key" overwatch perk (IE: the 2 most reliable perks in the entire specialist tree). And that's just insane. Threat assessment is bad without the free +1 armor, and rapid reaction > sentinel, though the specialist simply doesn't have access to it.

Tl:Dr its a good build in the right circumstances, but the trees arn't really there yet.
trihero
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by trihero »

Bu6613man wrote:Hi! Are overwatch rangers, or specialists, any good?

I was having a discussion on builds over on youtube (Northernlion), and I ran into some disagreement. I think that overwatcher dedicated soldiers go well with aggressive classes like assualts or technicals. But someone else said that they were eventually going become useless.

I watch xwynns and I do notice that he hasn't specced any of these. Which does suggest to me that they might fall off lategame. What do you think?

Ps. I got an unusually high aim, high mobility specialist, and overwatch-specced her. Result: she's my favorite soldier.
Overwatch rangers are fine IMO; xwynns just hasn't chosen to use one. He has however opted for an overwatching gunner and a couple of technicals, classes which are contrary to popular opinion for the late game. His rangers are doing plenty of work as is and show that rangers are fine.

I use overwatch rangers specifically to help farm supply raids/HQ/overwatch creep missions, and just in general to "carry" other classes that need help leveling up. They are so powerful at it that with 2 rangers on overwatch duty, you can usually rely on killing half of an 8 pod that wanders into your trap on the first go leaving easy pickings for the rest of your squad. They are very powerful and mobile for other missions as well; double dash into flank into ever vigilant into covering fire/rapid reaction = wtf?
Ketchup4684
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Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:29 am

Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Ketchup4684 »

Overwatch Rangers are the best class for overwatch right now, since they can fire once then fire 3 more times with Rapid Reaction. With Cool Under Pressure and an elite hair trigger, it's a 25 bonus to hit reaction shots, which supercedes the normal overwatch penalty, AND they can crit. With 40% from in the open, 10 from CUP, and an elite laser sight, it's a 65% chance to crit. Oh, and Locked On gives +10 aim and +10 crit chance on shots on the same unit. Overwatch Rangers are basically stationary death turrets during fights.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Saph7 »

Yeah, high-level overwatch Rangers are very good. They're mediocre until you hit the second-from-top rank (which is where they get Rapid Reaction), but once you do they become incredibly lethal. Now that I'm in lategame in my campaign I bring one along to all my shooty missions, and their job is to just overwatch every turn and wait for the AI to do something stupid.

I've never tried the Specialist overwatch build, but I guess if you happen to get a Spec with really high aim then it would work. He just wouldn't be much good at the hacking/medic role.
cerebrawl
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by cerebrawl »

My favorite overwatch builds depend on AWC jackpot. Sharpshooters with rapid reaction(and preferably cool under pressure), and gunners with rapid reaction(picking cool under pressure from their own tree), ever vigilant on top is gravy for the gunner.

Killzone sharpshooters are also very nice, especially with cool under pressure. Pod-killers for up to 6 targets, the cooldown is a bit long though.

I've had overwatch AWC jackpot on pretty much all the classes(except ranger/specialist, of course) at one point or another though. Sometimes it's "hey look, a useful technical", sometimes it's "overwatch shinobi, meh, perks that require shinobi to be revealed to be useful."
Defense 1: Ever vigilant
Defense 2: Cool under pressure
Defense 3: Rapid reaction
Manifest
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Manifest »

Ketchup4684 wrote:Overwatch Rangers are the best class for overwatch right now, since they can fire once then fire 3 more times with Rapid Reaction. With Cool Under Pressure and an elite hair trigger, it's a 25 bonus to hit reaction shots, which supercedes the normal overwatch penalty, AND they can crit. With 40% from in the open, 10 from CUP, and an elite laser sight, it's a 65% chance to crit. Oh, and Locked On gives +10 aim and +10 crit chance on shots on the same unit. Overwatch Rangers are basically stationary death turrets during fights.

Does cool under pressure give 10 crit too? I thought it was just aim.
Ithuriel
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Ithuriel »

cerebrawl wrote:My favorite overwatch builds depend on AWC jackpot. Sharpshooters with rapid reaction(and preferably cool under pressure), and gunners with rapid reaction(picking cool under pressure from their own tree), ever vigilant on top is gravy for the gunner.

Killzone sharpshooters are also very nice, especially with cool under pressure. Pod-killers for up to 6 targets, the cooldown is a bit long though.

I've had overwatch AWC jackpot on pretty much all the classes(except ranger/specialist, of course) at one point or another though. Sometimes it's "hey look, a useful technical", sometimes it's "overwatch shinobi, meh, perks that require shinobi to be revealed to be useful."
Defense 1: Ever vigilant
Defense 2: Cool under pressure
Defense 3: Rapid reaction
Do you run with AWC perks revealed? Is that standard if so? I've been running them off since that's the default, so... I don't exactly get to work out if I have a great 'combo' unless I already had reason to train that soldier so heavily >.<
cerebrawl
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by cerebrawl »

Ithuriel wrote:Do you run with AWC perks revealed? Is that standard if so? I've been running them off since that's the default, so... I don't exactly get to work out if I have a great 'combo' unless I already had reason to train that soldier so heavily >.<
I do run with them revealed. Have since I was debugging the XComLW_AWCPack.ini and ended up finding the bug with the RestrictedClass function.
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NoDebate
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by NoDebate »

I'll echo the sentiments in this thread about OW Rangers. They're a little slow to build up and Covering Fire is a joke at the moment but, with CUP and Rapid Reaction they really come into their own. Roll a lucky Center Mass, Lethal, Damn Good Ground, or Steady Hands (definitely Steady Hands) in the AWC and you've got a soldier that specializes in deleting pods from scamper.

OW builds are generally inflexible and provide you with not a whole lot to do on your turn. It's good practice to do as much as possible on your turn and leave ADVENT with as little to do as possible on their turn. It keeps soldiers alive.
Ketchup4684
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Ketchup4684 »

Manifest wrote:
Ketchup4684 wrote:Overwatch Rangers are the best class for overwatch right now, since they can fire once then fire 3 more times with Rapid Reaction. With Cool Under Pressure and an elite hair trigger, it's a 25 bonus to hit reaction shots, which supercedes the normal overwatch penalty, AND they can crit. With 40% from in the open, 10 from CUP, and an elite laser sight, it's a 65% chance to crit. Oh, and Locked On gives +10 aim and +10 crit chance on shots on the same unit. Overwatch Rangers are basically stationary death turrets during fights.

Does cool under pressure give 10 crit too? I thought it was just aim.
It allows ow shots to crit and gives ow shots a +10 bonus to both aim and crit chances
nightwyrm
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by nightwyrm »

NoDebate wrote: OW builds are generally inflexible and provide you with not a whole lot to do on your turn. It's good practice to do as much as possible on your turn and leave ADVENT with as little to do as possible on their turn. It keeps soldiers alive.
I find overwatch builds combos extremely well with Threat Assessment from Specs. Use a blue action from your Spec to TA, and your ranger could shoot twice and still overwatch. Or want to do an overwatch ambush from concealment but still have actions with your Ranger? TA is your answer.
Bu6613man
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Bu6613man »

nightwyrm wrote:
NoDebate wrote: OW builds are generally inflexible and provide you with not a whole lot to do on your turn. It's good practice to do as much as possible on your turn and leave ADVENT with as little to do as possible on their turn. It keeps soldiers alive.
I find overwatch builds combos extremely well with Threat Assessment from Specs. Use a blue action from your Spec to TA, and your ranger could shoot twice and still overwatch. Or want to do an overwatch ambush from concealment but still have actions with your Ranger? TA is your answer.
I didn't even think about using before concealment. With my OW Ranger, this is going to be broken. :D

Ps. I definitely love my OW builds. I've heard Yellow alert actions are curtailed by damage. I have no way of knowing how many shots I've prevented with OW damage. Anyone know the specific way this works?
nightwyrm
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by nightwyrm »

Bu6613man wrote:
nightwyrm wrote:
NoDebate wrote: OW builds are generally inflexible and provide you with not a whole lot to do on your turn. It's good practice to do as much as possible on your turn and leave ADVENT with as little to do as possible on their turn. It keeps soldiers alive.
I find overwatch builds combos extremely well with Threat Assessment from Specs. Use a blue action from your Spec to TA, and your ranger could shoot twice and still overwatch. Or want to do an overwatch ambush from concealment but still have actions with your Ranger? TA is your answer.
I didn't even think about using before concealment. With my OW Ranger, this is going to be broken. :D

Ps. I definitely love my OW builds. I've heard Yellow alert actions are curtailed by damage. I have no way of knowing how many shots I've prevented with OW damage. Anyone know the specific way this works?
Or TA a OW ranger and then use him to pop a pod! F-U, scamper mechanic.
trihero
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by trihero »

Ps. I definitely love my OW builds. I've heard Yellow alert actions are curtailed by damage. I have no way of knowing how many shots I've prevented with OW damage. Anyone know the specific way this works?
Basically mobs have two separate lists of yellow alert moves - one when wounded, one when unwounded. The unwounded contains the usual nasty possbilities like area suppression. But the wounded list is the same as the green alert list: i.e. defensive moves like hunker/overwatch.

And btw killzone is a little bit better than I thought since you can create some nice conceal ambushes with it. However, it does require both actions to activate so you better set up really nicely.
cerebrawl
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by cerebrawl »

trihero wrote:And btw killzone is a little bit better than I thought since you can create some nice conceal ambushes with it. However, it does require both actions to activate so you better set up really nicely.
Killzone sharpshooter is a pod deleter(for up to 6 targets with elite extended mag). Really quite incredibly useful on DFA builds. Nice when it shows up in the AWC.

Gunner can handle more targets, but it's harder to set up and more limited in range.
CasualGamer
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by CasualGamer »

cerebrawl wrote:
trihero wrote:And btw killzone is a little bit better than I thought since you can create some nice conceal ambushes with it. However, it does require both actions to activate so you better set up really nicely.
Killzone sharpshooter is a pod deleter(for up to 6 targets with elite extended mag). Really quite incredibly useful on DFA builds. Nice when it shows up in the AWC.

Gunner can handle more targets, but it's harder to set up and more limited in range.
Does the sniper need long watch to use kill zone at squadsight range?
Goumindong
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Goumindong »

CasualGamer wrote:
cerebrawl wrote:
trihero wrote:And btw killzone is a little bit better than I thought since you can create some nice conceal ambushes with it. However, it does require both actions to activate so you better set up really nicely.
Killzone sharpshooter is a pod deleter(for up to 6 targets with elite extended mag). Really quite incredibly useful on DFA builds. Nice when it shows up in the AWC.

Gunner can handle more targets, but it's harder to set up and more limited in range.
Does the sniper need long watch to use kill zone at squadsight range?
Not in the base game. Doesn't appear to in LW2 by description
trihero
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by trihero »

No, the tooltip on killzone specifically says it gives the unit squadsight even if it doesn't have long watch.
Tuhalu
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Tuhalu »

trihero wrote:No, the tooltip on killzone specifically says it gives the unit squadsight even if it doesn't have long watch.
I don't think Killzone is working as advertised though. I have it on a couple characters (Ranger and Gunner) and it consistently only works in vision range, despite having squadsight vision on targets in its AOE.
nightwyrm
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by nightwyrm »

I too have used KZ a couple of times and it's been vision range only. Either the tooltip is wrong or something else is screwy.

I don't have the game with me right now but I remember in Vanilla, KZ gives you LongWatch, not Squadsight (since all Sharps get SS anyways). Did the LW2 devs changed KZ to make it give SS as well? If not, maybe longwatch only works if your dude has SS as well.
Bu6613man
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Bu6613man »

Am I using killzone wrong? It doesn't seem like it should be the end perk of the Ranger Overwatch tree. I chose it on my overwatch ranger, whom I love, but now I really wish I'd chosen either of the other perks. I have enough ruptures, so I thought, might as well get the overwatch specific skill on my overwatcher.

This skill is rubbish. There are so many things wrong with it, the first being that it is rarely better than just a standard overwatch with RR. The cone is narrow, so I can't actually hit all that much, it takes two actions (nonsense) so you can't move and then use it without command.

It seems like a skill that is only good during an ambush from concealment, and even then I'd prefer to have my Specialist use threat assessment, and then I get three shots, and a whole turn with my ranger afterwards.

I get that I could just not take the skill if I don't like it (and I won't from now on, on OW rangers,) but it seems like a newb trap. Maybe it's good for non-overwatch focused rangers? Anyone have good experiences with the Ranger Killzone?
trihero
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by trihero »

Having used killzone on both specialist/rangers, you indeed identified correctly the main use is to do concealment ambush. But if you have a scouting shinobi, it's also good if you're pretty sure that pod is going to walk into you the next turn as well. I'm not going to sneeze at 6 free shots, but I also wouldn't take it without both a rifle + cool under pressure. All of the ranger's final moves can feel pretty tame under some circumstances (gunner has the same final moves too).
Jacke
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Jacke »

trihero wrote:Having used killzone on both specialist/rangers, you indeed identified correctly the main use is to do concealment ambush.
Is it worth taking Killzone on either Rangers or Specialists? I find it very hard to set up a pod to stumble over the XCOM squad with any regularity. Being situational and not even certain in that situation, should such a high-rank perk choice be allocated to Killzone? There's always soldiers who get it via the AWC.

Or does Killzone ignore Concealment and just fire on enemy whether concealed or not?
Tuhalu
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Re: Overwatch-specific builds

Post by Tuhalu »

Kill Zone is situationally useful.

Rapid Reaction can give 3 overwatch shots, but only if the first 2 actually hit. If there are enemies with Lightning Reflexes, you would be better off using Kill Zone since you'll take 1 shot at every target in the AOE (until you run out of bullets). Not only could you get more than 3 shots given enough targets, having a single Lightning Reflexes enemy run your overwatch won't wreck it.

If you don't have Covering Fire, Kill Zone also allows you to take a shot back against enemies taking an action in its AOE as well, all without wasting a rapid reaction shot.

As I stated earlier in this topic, it doesn't seem to work beyond sight range as it is advertised to do, but that doesn't necessarily ruin its utility.

I find Rupture to be a very situational skill as well, with only a couple enemies you'd really want to use it on. Those same enemies have other methods to destroy them anyway. Damage focused snipers and Chain Firing or Cyclic Firing gunners can mess up the hardest of targets.

Combat Fitness is fine if you can always deal with Lightning Reflexes enemies before setting up your Rapid Reaction trap.
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