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So, I gotta say the Ranger's sawed off (or is it sawn off? I forget what it is in game) is to me one of the coolest things in the game, yet I find it pretty weak. Even with it's massive damage, it is incredibly inaccurate, not getting a bonus unless the target is practically touching. Beyond, that it's like, -20% a space or something horrendous; even with it's hard coded extremely short range, an expose target will almost never be hit-able up to that range.

Add on to that you don't even get an upgrade for it until coil weapon tech (so I'm told, there sure aren't any as far as I've gotten), I just can't see to make good use for it. I can see if maybe it's intended to be situational like the gunner's knife, but this seems even worse than that.

Is there something that I'm missing? Do I just need to get lucky with a ranger with high move or some cool AWC abilities like sprinter or run'n'gun? I know that center mass boosts the damage, but that one point of damage doesn't seem to make a big difference, they are outclassed in CQB almost completely by Assaults with shotguns or Shinobi.

(I should add that I haven't seen all the Ranger perks yet, there may be something yet that's a major game changer, but I'm doubting it).

I used to think it was useless until i got a ranger with a good move (base 16 so 13 with all 3 utility filled). That guy one-shotted 2 full health sectoids at squadie rank in a single infiltration mission, freeing the rest of my limited squad (especially with the shinoby busy sneaking towards the objective) for the rest of the units.
At least in the early game it can be really good but yes, you have to be right next to the enemy to use it efficiently.

Now, when i have a low move ranger, i sure wish i could unequip it entirely to get +1 move rather than drop an utility item.

From what I have seen so far from the Sawed-off shotgun is that it should used right next to the adversary and preferably against a big one.

It does ridiculous damage and there is a perk that gives you two more shots with it. What I do is throw a Flashbang against a group of adversaries and rush in with Rangers. Shinobis and Assault and clear everything. Disorientated Troopers usually have terrible aim to be able to hit you out of cover and flanked.

Also that Sawed-off part of tree is actually the tanky soldier one. You are supposed to draw fire upon yourself, while being armed to the teeth. Combined with some good AWC perk for pistols, that soldier can give the aliens a lot of trouble, especially if they get close enough.

I honestly think it's fine the way it is. I think it's meant to be used at point blank range, and the tradeoff is it kills anything until like September in one shot. If you have a problem with the ranger's secondary, try using the gunner's secondary (lmao).

In LW1 it had a maximum range of 2 squares, that it even fires farther is a buff of a sorts.

Both Barrels inflicts devastating damage, not much can survive it.

For what it's worth, it exists because Cpl Hicks had one. It's intended for close encounters.

The thing can easily one-shot a faceless, sounds like a pretty awesome weapon. If you want to talk about crappy weapons it's the gunner combat knife.

Devon_v wrote:
For what it's worth, it exists because Cpl Hicks had one. It's intended for close encounters.

Actually I'm not sure if Hicks' shotgun qualifies as sawed off, but boy do I appreciate the reference

Thanks guys for actually giving advice, I was afraid I would get a bunch of "git gud" type stuff

Not really within the scope of the thread, but I don't find the Gunner's knife "bad" in that you're really not supposed to use it, and cannons are so good now (at least, I seriously love them with the more damage and actually a lot of ammo) it's really meant as a backup; still haven't really explored that part of the tree much.

The Gunner's Combat Knife is uh... better than I anticipated, looking at the stats. 2-4 damage base with +20% hit/crit? That's better chances of hitting and critting than a regular sword (although, you know, lower damage and no fleche).

That said it still feels like a pretty awkward and undesirable secondary. I feel like something fun could have been done here with a unique machine pistol (so Gunners are just all dakka all the time) instead of a knife. Or maybe just give Gunners Sawnoffs as well.

FWIW, here's the range data on the sawnoff; The 0 at range 0 is obviously because the number of times you are going to shoot at something in the same tile as you is essentially never. So 1 is directly adjacent and you can figure out the rest from there.

Gunners are good against Stun Lancers, oddly enough. Combatatives gives them the Muton parry-repost ability, and the knife can swing twice.

Theoretically it works on chryssalids, but I don't feel like testing it.

You can also just give Gunners a pistol and train some skills. Fan Fire should be a nice point defense.

I can't pass center mass up, it makes the gunner's main attacks shine bright. It's also hard for me to tell which unit a stun lancer will hit - they always seem to go for my specialist or something squishier than a gunner.

The secondary is amazing if something melee'centric with lots of HP... *Cough* Chrys *Cough* gets up against you and you survive their first strike... Just blow their freaking brains out and smirk.

Like many tools and perks, the sawed off is situational (unless you really build your ranger around it if you get one with high mobility and poor aim). But when that berserker is closing on you, those double barrels are godsend. One-hit-kill if it crits (which often does) or seriously wounded if not. That's the difference between using 4 guys to take the guy out or just 1-2.

Yea I haven't gotten far enough for anything but the occasional stunny to appear.

I do fear though that it will he outclassed before I get coil guns, but I guess that is why the ranger can shoot rifle first and then blast if they are that close and that big.

Anyone have a good time with the pump action (+2 sawed off ammo) perk? I use it so rarely I haven't felt compelled to take it.

I use pump action A LOT. The gun shoots only one double barrel without it. There's too many reinforcements in missions for that to be acceptable.

Did you ever play xcom2 vanilla? Using shotguns at range 1 was the best way to faceroll legendary. When I saw the LW2 let every class use shotguns I actually laughed.

So, yeah, you're meant to use the double barrel secondary like a normal shotgun: at range 1.

Darvon wrote:Did you ever play xcom2 vanilla? Using shotguns at range 1 was the best way to faceroll legendary. When I saw the LW2 let every class use shotguns I actually laughed.

So, yeah, you're meant to use the double barrel secondary like a normal shotgun: at range 1.

I mean that was kind of my point though, assaults in my experience have outclassed the Ranger at that role in almost every single circumstance, thanks to run'n'gun, more variety of CQB related perks, and being able to deliver shotgun blasts more reliably to greater range when needed.

Maybe I'm just a noob and/or got x-comed on my soldier's stats or something.

Heh personally I think the gunner outclasses the ranger as well, because eventually gunner can learn traverse fire which is equivalent to light em up, and after you account for that gunners just do more damage with their main weapon. But rapid reaction is pretty tasty if you are good at forcing enemies to run overwatch.

Rangers are great from day one. Light 'em Up and Both Barrels are built in at squaddie, no levels or equipment required. You can respec them later into overwatch campers once they have the aim to back it up.

They're the basic backbone trooper you can rely on for volume of fire. Everyone else is a specialist and will trump them in that specialty.

Sapper Grenadiers and Rangers are a strong combo from fairly long range.

Edit: Walk Fire is fantastic since Flush doesn't do damage anymore.

Yeah as Devon Said, Rangers are pretty awesome form the get-go. They are especially amazing as Haven advisors, they can outright assassinate the faceless with double barrel after someone else puts a little damage into it, which isn't hard with how easy it is to hit them. They also can do just a crap ton of damage to any hard targets that have been shredded.

But that's not the beauty of a ranger... Beauty of a ranger is putting an elite scope on them and just... Laughing as things die left and right. Light'em up gives you two attacks man! Focus fire, and holotarget an enemy... Then just decimate them with a ranger, command can get a third shot out of them. If you train a high aim soldier as a ranger you have an extremely offensive capable unit which can out damage, safely, assault by far.

I agree rangers are fine early on, it's just when gunners access traverse fire then it's like ehhhh. Overwatch camping isn't as effective as it used to be due to AI humping high cover, but maybe there are other tactics I'm not aware of to make overwatching better.

The Sawed Off is arguably the best 'non-defining' secondary out there (Grenade Launchers, Gauntlets, and Swords being 'defining'). It's basically a single-use Super Shotgun. It trades regular usage for tons of raw power. And since it's situational, the limited use isn't really that much of a problem. A tough enemy happens to get too close to your Ranger? Probably not going to happen again this mission, so give them both barrels for instant guaranteed death.

I have found on destroy alien relay missions where you are running short on turns the Ranger's shotgun can help knock a LOT of health off that thing in one attack. Similarly, if the gunner stands next to it they can knife it and then shoot (at the relay OR any enemies still bothering you), getting a little extra free damage each turn to take it down faster.

dodger wrote:I have found on destroy alien relay missions where you are running short on turns the Ranger's shotgun can help knock a LOT of health off that thing in one attack. Similarly, if the gunner stands next to it they can knife it and then shoot (at the relay OR any enemies still bothering you), getting a little extra free damage each turn to take it down faster.

That's clever, I forgot relays essentially have 100% to hit them regardless of range (although you can miss with skills like rapid fire), and that knife tactic is a nice little insight.

trihero wrote:

dodger wrote:I have found on destroy alien relay missions where you are running short on turns the Ranger's shotgun can help knock a LOT of health off that thing in one attack. Similarly, if the gunner stands next to it they can knife it and then shoot (at the relay OR any enemies still bothering you), getting a little extra free damage each turn to take it down faster.

That's clever, I forgot relays essentially have 100% to hit them regardless of range (although you can miss with skills like rapid fire), and that knife tactic is a nice little insight.

Yeah the ranger one is boss, the gunner is a bit less so but the relay can provide him high cover too so it can be a good to move him there if you're in a firefight at the relay and haven't managed to take it down yet.

It's useful for those bullet-spunges if you can stun them. I used it on the beserker queen after stunning the thing with my assault. I was able to kill her before she got away