How early is too early to liberate?

gimrah
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How early is too early to liberate?

Post by gimrah »

For the first ever time I got my lib chain done very efficiently and I could have launched the HQ infiltration in mid May. However I haven't yet because I don't see how I beat an HQ yet. Am I missing something?

My experience of these missions is that you take a few dings and that the general is lethal and very hard to kill. And I don't know when muton football teams start appearing on those missions. I don't have enough armour. My soldiers don't have key perks as they are just CPLs and SGTs.

I feel for the general, you either need complete CC (stun or fire), or you need to be able to destroy his cover and focus him down.

My gunners don't have demolition yet so I would only have cover destruction from a sapper grenadier, who would be very limited in consumables and probably can't actually destroy a lot of the cover on those maps anyway.

I don't have incendiaries yet: PG would need power, which is too much money vs other priorities. I could bring a technical but he wouldn't be much use most of the time.

I'm thinking if I launch in the second week of June, I'll at least have armour (maybe exo) and a couple more perks. I'll probably bring an arc thrower assault and hope he can land his stun on the general. And if the enemies get a bit tougher in that period then maybe at least I'll get some better corpses.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by Psieye »

gimrah wrote:I feel for the general, you either need complete CC (stun or fire), or you need to be able to destroy his cover and focus him down.
Assuming you've killed the rest of his pod, the General can be cheesed:
- A shadowstep shinobi hunkers behind high cover in his sight with Aid Prot = 95 Def (assuming no innate Def)
- The rest of the squad runs away
- General's AI is now simplified to "walk forward a bit and OW"
- Shinobi plays hunker-tag with the General. Never gets shot, stay away from flanks
- Sniper cheeses General from afar
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

How many regions do you control ?
Liberation chain in starting region is bad in my opinion, you will screw up all cheap to contact regions.
Farming in those regions is more important than Liberation. 8-10 man away is big hit to expansion.

Usually last two pods don't go far from each other and you will activate both.
I agree about two Specialist approach but I bring two Technical or more. Last pods must be on fire non - stop. Rocket should destroy cover , sapper is not enough. Go with full 10 man if you choose to do it. Can't help more but my priority for this mission is to have 3 Technical-s.
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gimrah
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by gimrah »

I am currently scanning to get my 4th region. My other two are at 1 strength for some reason, although that can't last presumably.

I like the idea of shawdowstep hunker tanking, assuming I have a shadowstep one available. But I generally feel that it's ok once it's just the general. My whole squad can probably focus him down between them. But really you need to CC him for a turn while you go to town on the rest of his pod.

I guess I can probably stun him for a turn while I whittle down his pod, and then start falling back while I finish off his pod mates and whittle him down. Rangers can shoot then hunker as well, which helps I guess. Just need to prioritise lancers and anything with AoE.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by Psieye »

I've had to do a "fighting retreat" to take out the General's pod before. The squad constantly keeps the pod just out of sight (except to a concealed spotter) at the end of each turn for about 3 turns. Snipers remove everything dangerous, LR assaults clear the inevitable OW spam while moving back and hunkering again. When there's no more room to retreat (i.e. snipers will become visible), smoke+Aid Protocol on a sole-visible gunner in high cover (85 Def). That should buy enough time to kill all the dangerous things - there won't be much in a May liberation.

Likewise, an LR assault can do the hunker-dance with the General when he's the only thing left alive.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by Dwarfling »

You can flashbang and suppress the General and he will usually do silly stuff. It will at least buy you time. Generally if you do double Sharpshooter and keep your Shinobi concealed thru the whole mission you can dispatch most of the General's pod before they reach you. If you double suppress him from high cover he will usually just stay put and you can slowly plink away with your Sharpshooters, after you isolate him.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

He can't do crap while he is on fire. Use rocket or two on rest of pod . Flank , burn , crit.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by gimrah »

Yeah, but if you bring a technical then he's dead weight until that pod as he has to save his consumables. And I don't have incendiary grenades.

Even flashbangs are taking up valuable slots. However I can achieve the same same thing at least every other turn with an arc thrower assault. So that's probably the key to my strat. I find he usually just runs suppression. So it's ok when he's down to a handful of hp but until then you can't rely on it.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

He can one shot kill. Every turn. And he will kill your best soldiers.
What difficulty you run?
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by Psieye »

A technical in an early liberation... can't see that being useful unless he takes Shredder and has a laser rifle. Then he'd have some use as the anti-armour.
gimrah wrote:I find he usually just runs suppression.
Hence why Dwarfling said double-suppression. IIRC, each suppression has a 25% chance of being ran. With double suppression, that's a 1/16th chance of running. Add individual OWs too with their 50% chance. 2 suppression + 1 OW and the General (if he's in cover and not flanked) has a ~97% chance of not moving. It is a lot of actions tied up to keeping the General's head down, but with a couple smoke grenades the rest of the pod (assuming rockets, missiles and Sectoids are disposed of) should be mostly harmless. Especially if Area Suppression catches a couple other targets as well as the General.

If you want to rely on assaults to stun the General, I'd bring two and somehow figure out a good position where the rest of his pod won't kill 2 assaults who are taking turns to perma-stun. Daze from an assault can only affect one target. A flashbang that slows half the pod can cleave it in half if launched with RD and the entire squad runs away (except the grenadier who hides) - the whole pod wants to chase you but the dazed will fall behind. If the RD grenadier then shows himself and hunkers, the two halves of the pod find different things to aggro on and start freaking out.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by gimrah »

Playing Legend. I know from Commander he can oneshot an armoured soldier in full cover. I don't actually know how much damage he does though. It's possible I'm conflating with the M2 general.

Double suppression sounds good. I didn't know the AI decided per suppression. Good to know. I usually put combat awareness PCS on gunners so they should be ok without smoke.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Because I can't get good DFA sniper that early or train one. I must use them as Phantoms to cover missions without Shinobi.
My Assaults go full Right path or they are dead/30 days out of action (they can be dead with this wound time).

Just use every sniper you have. Do the map with Shinobi/Sniper combo.

Go with 10 squad - two rangers and two specialist and full sniper, drop any class or soldier that can't fight at range.
I had trouble with drones, Stunlancers, sectoids and other stuff that can break Aid protocol (get close).
Advent general is pain and only sure thing to control him is fire. This is quite a risk but it will give you time to deal with others .Otherwise he will be in full cover in no time forcing you to advance or retreat. You must deal with 3 Armor, 30 HP and 90+ aim . Technical is not death weight in this fight.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by gimrah »

Right. Thanks all for the advice. I ended up dispatching it on Jun 10, so a 2-3 week delay.

Decided I didn't have the stones for some of the strats suggested. I rarely manage to keep concealment on shinobi to the end. Can't justify bringing technical for one pod. And Sonny's playstyle seems just so different to mine it seems risky to adapt that far.

Now got armour on everyone. Got an officer to TBF so most of the team got a promotion during the wait.

8 man team as follows:

2 sharps. SSGT DfA sharp. LCPL RT sniper but is officer with focus fire, quickdraw and lightning hands. Hopefully he is a bit versatile.

2 SGT rangers. Left side but with CuP.

2 SGT gunners. 1 suppression, 1 shred.

1 SGT arc thrower assault. Stuns general hopefully. Also any beserkers. And stuns/disorients any awkwardly positioned nasties lime rocketeers, lancers and najas. Has rifle so can otherwise be wide flanker (as opposed to deep flanker with shotgun).

1 CPL shinobi. Blade + combatives. Would rather have shadowstep but he got injured.

AP on DfA sharp and rangers. 4 medkits. 1 flashbangs. A lot of rabbit feet and charm bracelets.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

To be honest my playstyle is - hard mission = burn and rocket and shoot after cover is gone.
I will try to make one DFA but this will reduce number of missions that I can have. I m trying to squeeze as much as I can with phantom Snipers. I have Shinobi-Specialist-Technical small teams to do hack and do Lib 1 missions. They do not fight but they can keep Advent at bay for few turns (heroic term for running away). Rest of teams are lead by Phantom Snipers (snapshoters) and they are for extract missions. This double my squads bringing me more intel.
I m doing 5 region approach - delayed HQ. I want to be big in May.

From my point you are giving up 3 missions and possible one region with this HQ. Any detected region will release strength because Vigilance will drop. When Strength is on move you can intercept it , avoid it, get troop columns, supply raid . This works if you have nice ring of regions and good havens.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by gimrah »

I find it depends on the state of my other regions. I have a full one at strength 3 where I am currently infiltrating Lib3. I have another at strength 1 where I am running easy GOps. And a fourth I've just contacted and am recruiting in.

I have more missions available than I have squads to fight them. I mostly avoid small squad missions. I will do 4-man missions where they are important (supply raids, lib1, extracting a VIP type I really need), but not as a rule. I find the 2-3 man stealthy ones just too risky. By mid summer I'd hope to be running 3-5 missions at once and then maybe wind that down slightly as M3s come in.

Primary focus for the next month will be liberating a second region by end of July. I find that's a good time to do it as I should have mag weapons by then but not be facing M3s yet. That will probably be it for libbing. Two seems enough and I find HQs with M3s to be very dangerous.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SpinDoctor »

Sorry to Necro-post, but the thread was relevant to my situation.

Anyway, I was faced with the same decision the other night. It’s mid-May, starting region is the Artic. I’ve contacted down the side of Eastern Asia (so contacted regions are Artic, E. Asia, and Indonesia. Strength is fairly low in all regions, with high Vigilance in the Artic, which had the exposed HQ.

I know it’s has been said not to lib your starting region, but I can't see a good reason not to, since I'm not really a fan of big haven retaliations, plus my plan is to use Indonesia for farming (It’s still in the building/recruit phase) and sort of keep E. Asia relatively quiet and use it as a buffer from the Artic. I really plan to light up Indonesia... Plus I need the money...

So I ran the mission with a pretty standard 10 man squad - 2 OW Rangers, a sting grenade Grenadier, Assault, Shinobi, Technical, etc. Nothing fancy. Mostly SGTs and a couple SSGTs. I have a Laser Lance, Laser cannon, a couple Laser Rifles and a Scatter Ray. The rest are Smg’s. I was fortunate in the first engagement as the first two sets of big pods I encountered were patrolling an asphalt equipment staging area while I managed to take the high ground on a building overlooking that area, still undetected since I’d killed the lone Turret with my Shinobi and Silent Takedown. Two Drones had luckily moved off in the other direction, toward the center of the map.

I opened up on one pod of 8 with a grenade and dealt with the scamper from the other. It was a long engagement as two other pods arrived a few turns in to see what all the fuss was about, I was able to fight off probably 30 enemies total from that building, which was an advantage.

Long story longer, After moving forward and scouting, I found and took out the Generals pod by staying just out of sight and sniping and taking OW shots when they tried to engage. A large contingent took refuge in and near a watchtower, which was easily dispatched by my Technical. She had gotten one other kill and did some fire damage also, which helped. While use of Technicals is admittedly pretty situational, I think HQ missions are definitely a situation for them to show up. So, I took her with the intent of saving that rocket for the situation that did actually arise. I got the General himself with a sting grenade that stunned him before he ever fired a shot and later, gave him a close in Scatterray blast to the head to finish him.

My only casualty was my gunner, who has great aim at 90, but has -10 Defense, so is always shot up. I had high hopes for him but he’s gonna get haven duty since as he’s just too fragile for GOps. Gunners are my preference for Havens anyway.
Last edited by SpinDoctor on Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Defense PCS + Combatives perk + Formidable + Shred (optional) if you plan to respec him. It will not be great suppressor but he can use shooty perks like Rapid fire and Traverse fire, Chain Shot, Cyclic Fire. He should be able to kill MEC in May with ballistics.

Pure Suppressors are missing a lot. Can't remember any situation where Suppression did some damage in May. Mostly grazes so I shoot with them
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SpinDoctor »

Yeah, I could do that, but although he's a good shot, he's pretty low level and I don't think I can do enough to counter -10 defense, plus he has low health. He's out for 20 days if he stubs his toe. He's also kinda slow. I need an experienced guy in the havens anyway.

I agree about the suppression. I had him Area Suppress a group of 4 aliens and two of them just waltzed right out of the line of fire and one of those even shot him causing a bleed out. I thought AS was a lot better perk than that.

So, after running that HQ, I found a good gunner in the Black Market. +8 defense, 16 mobility, 78 aim, I think 6 health.... So I can maker her into an elite gunner.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Scope, armor , AP rounds. They are heavy hitters. Choice of weapons is depending on difficulty. If laser can kill Sectoid then you are in good spot with him. When you level him up and get Rapid fire you will using him a lot. Traverse Fire is best pick for high aim Gunner
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by Psieye »

SpinDoctor wrote:Anyway, I was faced with the same decision the other night. It’s mid-May, starting region is the Artic. I’ve contacted down the side of Eastern Asia (so contacted regions are Artic, E. Asia, and Indonesia. Strength is fairly low in all regions, with high Vigilance in the Artic, which had the exposed HQ.

I know it’s has been said not to lib your starting region, but I can't see a good reason not to
I believe you're recalling the discussion about Legendary where liberating your starting region is impractical because Lib1 doesn't even spawn until the first supply drop has passed. Str jacks up too high to pragmatically do the rest of the Lib chain unless you wait for the starting region to cool off (and you kinda can't afford to wait). On lower difficulties, it's typical to make the starting region the first liberation. The arguments against that are minor:
- starting region already has a radio tower, so Lib4 won't give you that benefit
- starting region will contribute a lot to global vigilance which you'll wipe by liberating it

The bigger concern is any uncontacted neighbours of your now-liberated starting region. All neighbours to a liberated region want +2 Str than their vigilance otherwise dictates.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by gimrah »

If I have 3+ regions I sometimes designate the most promising for liberation, i.e. low strength and 5 or 6 rebels. I will only run jailbreaks and liberation missions there (unless there's a seriously juicy reward) to avoid drawing more strength. I will pop a scientist in for a couple of days to help with Lib1 and Lib2 detection. (Lib 3 will always be detected on max timer the 2nd time it spawns.) I'll stay on intel while I infiltrate the network tower to try and catch a supply raid or troop column. Then I'll go on supply or hide during the HQ infiltration: I don't want to lose rebels in the region I'm about to liberate.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

They will get UFO - even on hiding after liberation 2 or even after first Jailbreak. There is low chance to detect this UFO so you will need Avenger. Worst part is that you will newer know when to scan but it will be there.

UFO detection is pain. Only undetected UFO can screw your regions. I m in early June can Liberate 3 regions and I can jump to Blacksite. So for me best time for Liberation is NEVER but I have EXALT so I must Liberate (for event chain). I picked one connection region to have more Strength on move and more influence over retail region. Only one region will be screwed (+1/+1/+2 strength over 20 vigilance) and wasting just one haven on intel is best option for now. I can even lose region if I choose to .

Full haven + Sci have chance to get good timer. 150+ intel power (one rebel=10). But UFO hunting time require to put all havens on intel in hope that Advent will not reinforce non contacted region. (and log for cooldown)
You have better chance to detect UFO if you run Lib 1 and two RND mission. It is fresh rising in Vigilance and usually UFO is locked on that region. Rest are RND.
Super UFO mostly will hit Super high Vigilance regions with Tower mission enabled or HQ mission enabled. Or they can spawn with normal UFO. ( this is happening on my map - not sure about rules). I do not stop scanning after one detection next is usually in 12h range.

Hunting Dark Event is easy. Supply Raid will raise Vigilance in connected regions. They Spawn there. On my map this is everywhere but in first month you can follow the track and kill half of DE or all.

Hunting UFO will lead to less Advent Strength on map but it is super costly operation. Killed 20+ UFO strength but still can't make trap. Max Strength on my Map is 3 so they will spawn everywhere. Reduce in Global Advent Strength is good thing - I can train rookies everywhere and have more flawless mission with my best soldiers . Detection timers are bad and window for detection is low ( 2-3 man mission with silencers)
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SpinDoctor »

Psieye wrote:
SpinDoctor wrote:Anyway, I was faced with the same decision the other night. It’s mid-May, starting region is the Artic. I’ve contacted down the side of Eastern Asia (so contacted regions are Artic, E. Asia, and Indonesia. Strength is fairly low in all regions, with high Vigilance in the Artic, which had the exposed HQ.

I know it’s has been said not to lib your starting region, but I can't see a good reason not to
I believe you're recalling the discussion about Legendary where liberating your starting region is impractical because Lib1 doesn't even spawn until the first supply drop has passed. Str jacks up too high to pragmatically do the rest of the Lib chain unless you wait for the starting region to cool off (and you kinda can't afford to wait). On lower difficulties, it's typical to make the starting region the first liberation. The arguments against that are minor:
- starting region already has a radio tower, so Lib4 won't give you that benefit
- starting region will contribute a lot to global vigilance which you'll wipe by liberating it

The bigger concern is any uncontacted neighbours of your now-liberated starting region. All neighbours to a liberated region want +2 Str than their vigilance otherwise dictates.
Ahh ok. I didn't think about the Lib timing.

Concerning wiping the vigilance, I don't see that as an issue, if you do the liberation early enough in the campaign. You should (I would think) have plenty of time to raise it if you need to counter the Doom Clock. If nothing else, you can hit the Big Red Button that "Gets Advents Attention". I guarantee that will slam the breaks on. I've done it... But that creates a whole different situation, which some might like, mission-wise but I found it pretty annoying. Lots of retals of every type...

Not sure what to do about neighbors wanting strength. Intercept the Columns and Supply I guess. Force Levels are more of a concern to me, and you can't do anything about that anyway.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by Psieye »

SpinDoctor wrote:Not sure what to do about neighbors wanting strength. Intercept the Columns and Supply I guess.
Just to be clear, that'll raise Vigilance in the neighbours - there'll be a net concentration of Str gathering in the vicinity from trying to kill off 1 Str. Maybe that's what you want. Alternatively, you can contact that region and vow never to do a mission there - recruit your way up to a suitable sized haven then flip it to supply. Though I personally would be loathe to do that because of an inclination to min/max mission spawns on the strategic layer.
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Re: How early is too early to liberate?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Gets Advents Attention is just minor Vigilance rising. You will need 10 to jump to Severe.
Severe must be controlled by strong havens or UFOs will drop (+8 Strength every 3 weeks vs +4 below Severe).
Supply raid can net You +4 Vigilance max or 0.
Force Level is not a issue before 7. This is ballistic time. Summer is for Laser and few Mag-s and Liberation.
Strength in circle of fire do not move. It will just sit there until vigilance drop to very low level. Tower and Lib 2 adds demand of +2 strength if you did them. They will not exchange Strength only Strength you will intercept is from regions far away.

This can be good strategy move. Old regions can hold up lots of strength. Raids in those regions can make you cry but you will detect Supply Raids easier (there is bonus detection at and after STR 4).
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