Combatives fix

chaosxxxxx
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Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:13 pm

Combatives fix

Post by chaosxxxxx »

So,as i have seen a lot of people including me have issues with the upcoming rework of combatives,where it gives u 90% chance to dodge the melee attack.
Here's the thing...
When u put your soldier(gunner/shinobi) next to a muton early game,and u fail to counter;you are dead,there is no way around it.
And early game is where it really shines since its a tier 1 skill for gunners,and tier 2 for shinobis.
So,the skill can be represented as "you are extremely likely to counter enemy melee attack,but their is a slight chance you will die".
Statistically speaking,if u try to counter a muton 10 times,there is a 65%(1-.9^10) chance he/she will die.
And given how this is xcom,where 70% is 0% for u;while 30% is 100% for advent/aliens;your memorial will quickly pile up with lots of dead shinobis...
And lets face it,LW2 has a ridiculous number of RNG,with even more coming in 1.5.Does it really need more?

So,whats the remedy?Here's what i propose...
You are guaranteed to counter,but only once per enemy. When the enemy(lancer/muton/archons) fails to melee you,it wont try to melee you anymore;but instead shoot from next turn.
This way no one will be able to 'lockdown' melee units for infinite amount of turns, and you do not have 10% chance to kick the bucket...
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

chaosxxxxx wrote:So,as i have seen a lot of people including me have issues with the upcoming rework of combatives,where it gives u 90% chance to dodge the melee attack.
Here's the thing...
When u put your soldier(gunner/shinobi) next to a muton early game,and u fail to counter;you are dead,there is no way around it.
And early game is where it really shines since its a tier 1 skill for gunners,and tier 2 for shinobis.
So,the skill can be represented as "you are extremely likely to counter enemy melee attack,but their is a slight chance you will die".
Statistically speaking,if u try to counter a muton 10 times,there is a 65%(1-.9^10) chance he/she will die.
And given how this is xcom,where 70% is 0% for u;while 30% is 100% for advent/aliens;your memorial will quickly pile up with lots of dead shinobis...
And lets face it,LW2 has a ridiculous number of RNG,with even more coming in 1.5.Does it really need more?

So,whats the remedy?Here's what i propose...
You are guaranteed to counter,but only once per enemy. When the enemy(lancer/muton/archons) fails to melee you,it wont try to melee you anymore;but instead shoot from next turn.
This way no one will be able to 'lockdown' melee units for infinite amount of turns, and you do not have 10% chance to kick the bucket...
Combatives doesn't work on lancers. It also not very good against archons since you are gambling. The archon AI might as well shoot you (doesn't necessarily use melee over shooting).

As for muton killing you, that's something that you might have to work around. Muton hits for like 9; if you have 3 ablative then you need a soldier with 7 (very unlikely) or a vest - which is not that uncommon considering the mutons pop up in June. That soldier will be unusable for the rest of the mission but he will survive.

I personally don't like the change either - I would have preferred to have an internal cooldown; every time the ability procs, it sets a cooldown for like 2-3 turns. This way you could still use it reliably but not abuse it.

However, LW2 has a trend of removing all guaranteed tactics (e.g. % falloff damage on granades, % chance to miss on flashbang, % chance to miss on flame, % chance to miss on fire grenade, capping crit damage to 100% before dodge is applied , GRAZE, % chance to randomly get hit by every pod ..etc). So I am not surprised that a 100% chance skill to lockdown one of the most common enemies mid game is getting nerfed.

I guess it's difficult to make the AI smarted so they just put more RNG to pump up difficulty in the game.
fowlJ
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by fowlJ »

I'm pretty sure the point of the Combatives nerf is that you aren't supposed to be able to sit a Combatives unit next to a Muton and reliably stop them from doing anything. It's supposed to be a defensive skill, like Formidable - you don't 'use' Formidable to pull off any particular trick, but if you get hit with a grenade (or otherwise take damage) then it benefits you. Same deal, you don't 'use' Combatives like it's been shown you are currently able to do, it's just something that benefits you if a melee unit charges at you and attacks.
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

fowlJ wrote:I'm pretty sure the point of the Combatives nerf is that you aren't supposed to be able to sit a Combatives unit next to a Muton and reliably stop them from doing anything. It's supposed to be a defensive skill, like Formidable - you don't 'use' Formidable to pull off any particular trick, but if you get hit with a grenade (or otherwise take damage) then it benefits you. Same deal, you don't 'use' Combatives like it's been shown you are currently able to do, it's just something that benefits you if a melee unit charges at you and attacks.
It's a fair point; but for that purpose alone, the skill is useless.

Combatives doesn't work on Cryssalids, Andromedon, Lancers - which are basically the units that topically charge to melee you.

I am not saying that 100% chance to lock down a muton as long as you want is balanced but there is no other use for that skill.
Skyro
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Skyro »

Huh? Combatives for sure works against Lancers. Or did you mean to say that their AI won't necessarily melee a target standing next to them and thus not as exploitable as Muton's AI?

But I think we can all agree adjusting Muton's AI would be the preferred "fix" if feasible. Would love to hear a dev comment on this.
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

Skyro wrote:Huh? Combatives for sure works against Lancers. Or did you mean to say that their AI won't necessarily melee a target standing next to them and thus not as exploitable as Muton's AI?

But I think we can all agree adjusting Muton's AI would be the preferred "fix" if feasible. Would love to hear a dev comment on this.
Well, 3 times the lancer attacked my shinoby, 3 times it hit (separate occasions). If yours worked ....maybe it's a % chance?
MacroNova
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by MacroNova »

If the Muton AI is fixed to shoot instead of melee, then that will also make combatives useless. Honestly, combatives is a bandaid on a deep-rooted problem in XCOM 2 - a huge abundance of melee attacks that make cover irrelevant.

If combatives is nerfed into the ground by making it unreliable then either people will never pick it (and therefore get a lot more death and wounds because of uncontrolled mutons) or they will (rightly) feel like they were the victim of unfair bullshit the 10% of the time their soldier was killed.

The only way to properly deal with this situation is to make melee less prevalent and less deadly, and just get rid of combatives as a perk.
caseywills
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by caseywills »

I agree that the preferred fix is a tweak to Muton AI making melee less likely. Say 90% chance they melee. Would result in much the same survival chance, though.

Also regarding enemies hitting you through combatives in v1.4, I once parked a shinobi inbetween 2 mutons, adjacent to each. Combatives procd on 1st Muton but the 2nd muton hit me for 4 damage, removing all my ablative.

So, combatives seems to be a once per round skill and missing it with a high dodge shinobi is not a death sentence.
Skyro
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Skyro »

WanWhiteWolf wrote:
Skyro wrote:Huh? Combatives for sure works against Lancers. Or did you mean to say that their AI won't necessarily melee a target standing next to them and thus not as exploitable as Muton's AI?

But I think we can all agree adjusting Muton's AI would be the preferred "fix" if feasible. Would love to hear a dev comment on this.
Well, 3 times the lancer attacked my shinoby, 3 times it hit (separate occasions). If yours worked ....maybe it's a % chance?
That's very weird. A bug perhaps? Combatives has proc'ed for me on numerous occasions vs stun lancers.
MacroNova wrote:If the Muton AI is fixed to shoot instead of melee, then that will also make combatives useless. Honestly, combatives is a bandaid on a deep-rooted problem in XCOM 2 - a huge abundance of melee attacks that make cover irrelevant.

If combatives is nerfed into the ground by making it unreliable then either people will never pick it (and therefore get a lot more death and wounds because of uncontrolled mutons) or they will (rightly) feel like they were the victim of unfair bullshit the 10% of the time their soldier was killed.

The only way to properly deal with this situation is to make melee less prevalent and less deadly, and just get rid of combatives as a perk.
Everybody says it will become useless but I don't agree. First of all it gives 10 dodge which is useful in and of itself, but when I and others say to fix Muton AI we just mean to make it more unpredictable so it isn't as exploitable, not that the muton will never melee.
Dwarfling
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Dwarfling »

I guess Corporal is gonna suck for Shinobis. It's either Shadowstep, which is... Ehh... Executioner, which is... Ehh... Or +10 dodge with a melee counterattack that comes with a slight chance of getting butchered.
Swiftless
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Swiftless »

fowlJ wrote:I'm pretty sure the point of the Combatives nerf is that you aren't supposed to be able to sit a Combatives unit next to a Muton and reliably stop them from doing anything. It's supposed to be a defensive skill, like Formidable - you don't 'use' Formidable to pull off any particular trick, but if you get hit with a grenade (or otherwise take damage) then it benefits you. Same deal, you don't 'use' Combatives like it's been shown you are currently able to do, it's just something that benefits you if a melee unit charges at you and attacks.
Yes, but outside of Berserkers and enraged Archons, how many units charge for melee? Stun Lancers can but their AI is more clever than whatever was used for Mutons and Mutons don't charge, they just melee as an attack of opportunity.

I'm not past admitting that Combatives takes advantage of some poor AI mechanics but without that it's a completely underpowered ability. It would need something to make it more worthwhile if it were changed or the AI for Mutons was changed to more resemble Lancers. Again, I don't feel a % chance of failure alone is the best way to accomplish this but this gets back to taking a look at the sort of rough edged approach the vanilla designers took with melee that's just been inherited by LW2. I think one of the dev highlights for vanilla was that Mutons were supposed to eat your face if you tried to melee them. Which is why (I'm guessing) the AI wants to melee every time as the opportunity presented itself. The problem with Combatives being so good and feels necessary is because if you don't have it you're going to get roflstomped as a result. In other words I think Muton melee damage is overtuned. If it weren't so bad I think there'd be some more leeway for playing around with % chance of success type values. I'd be willing to take the chance on a Combatives counter not being successful if I also knew I wasn't going to take lots of damage and get stunned or disoriented at the same time.

If I were to compare it to something like Formidable; I would make the point that Formidable with the +2 ablative HP is always useful for everything and the reduced explosive damage is situational but is always consistent. Where as Combatives parry is situational and the +Dodge is percentage based chance which can be variable in its results of success.
Exquisitor
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Exquisitor »

Flashbang >>> Combatives. I never spec for Combatives because it seems very weak and situational.
Rikokrates
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Rikokrates »

How about making combativeness similar to hard target? The first melee attack can be countered but after that the % for successive counters drops. That might be a nice way to change it, though personally I like it the way it is. :lol:
wobuffet
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by wobuffet »

How about changing Combatives to
  • +50 Defense and +100 Dodge against first melee attack per turn.
    (So assuming 0 innate Dodge, an 85 Aim melee attack against you completely misses 75% of the time and generates a Graze 25% of the time – so running up next to Muton is pretty safe if it's the last enemy up, but you definitely face a real chance of taking some damage.)
  • If any melee attack completely misses you, you attempt a counterattack.
    (Normal aim applies, including standard reaction shot penalty.)
nmkaplan
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by nmkaplan »

Swiftless wrote:Yes, but outside of Berserkers and enraged Archons, how many units charge for melee? Stun Lancers can but their AI is more clever than whatever was used for Mutons and Mutons don't charge, they just melee as an attack of opportunity.
Cryssalids. Also, Muton Centurions and Elites will charge and melee, even if you're not sitting next to them.
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

nmkaplan wrote:
Swiftless wrote:Yes, but outside of Berserkers and enraged Archons, how many units charge for melee? Stun Lancers can but their AI is more clever than whatever was used for Mutons and Mutons don't charge, they just melee as an attack of opportunity.
Cryssalids. Also, Muton Centurions and Elites will charge and melee, even if you're not sitting next to them.
Combatives do not work against cryssalids. At least not against their reactions - which is the most dangerous thing. Not sure about their normal attack.
DonCrabio
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by DonCrabio »

Players don't like RNG they can't manipulate. I believe almost nobody will choose Combatives in 1.5 if this change goes live. Same for Incendiary greandes. Why bother with unstable grenade what will put you down every 1 of 4 uses?

I will just pick Shadowstep, just to have free overwatch removal tool.
Zyrrashijn
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Zyrrashijn »

Except that Shadowstep itself does not remove overwatch.
JulianSkies
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by JulianSkies »

DonCrabio wrote:Players don't like RNG they can't manipulate. I believe almost nobody will choose Combatives in 1.5 if this change goes live. Same for Incendiary greandes. Why bother with unstable grenade what will put you down every 1 of 4 uses?

I will just pick Shadowstep, just to have free overwatch removal tool.
Mostly i've been taking Combatives for the +10 Dodge myself.
DonCrabio
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by DonCrabio »

Zyrrashijn wrote:Except that Shadowstep itself does not remove overwatch.
Sword Shinobi with decent AIM almost never miss a swing. And with Whirlwind or Reaper it become even better, since you can clear overwatch by killing or heavily wounding a target and f off to safety.
Icarus
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Icarus »

I think a melee counterattack only makes sense if I can bait melee enemies with it with at least some reliability. I only pick it for this utility, and consider it very situational. In my opinion, it's also not that much of a hard counter for Mutons - putting it next to a Muton requires it not being shot to death by his friends. So it's a situation I have to set up to be effective, and I consider that enough balance - if I manage to outmanoeuvre the enemy squad, then I deserve my hard Muton counter.

That said, I don't consider a 10% miss chance to make the skill worthless. But yes, I will probably also feel cheated by those 10%. If a flashbang misses, then I am on my turn and thus can try something else. But if the counter misses, then I am getting hacked.

We'll see when it comes out. If it annoys me, then I will config it out.
Psieye
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Psieye »

JulianSkies wrote: Mostly i've been taking Combatives for the +10 Dodge myself.
Same. I don't care if I can parry a melee attack. If I let something get to melee range, I've already fucked up in my doctrine. Dodge stacking means a lot more to me.
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Thrombozyt
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Thrombozyt »

Icarus wrote:In my opinion, it's also not that much of a hard counter for Mutons - putting it next to a Muton requires it not being shot to death by his friends. So it's a situation I have to set up to be effective, and I consider that enough balance - if I manage to outmanoeuvre the enemy squad, then I deserve my hard Muton counter.
Unfortunately, Mutons are the pod leaders for the vast majority of the game and with decreased pod size, it's usually feasible to hard control or kill 2 enemies and negate the muton through combatives - especially as you don't even have to spend actions to kill the Muton - it will kill itself over time.

Placing someone next to the Muton is not a great feat that entitles your exploit of the AI.
Icarus
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by Icarus »

Thrombozyt wrote: Unfortunately, Mutons are the pod leaders for the vast majority of the game and with decreased pod size, it's usually feasible to hard control or kill 2 enemies and negate the muton through combatives - especially as you don't even have to spend actions to kill the Muton - it will kill itself over time.

Placing someone next to the Muton is not a great feat that entitles your exploit of the AI.
Huh. I got Mutons mainly on bigger missions with a lot of pods, or on network tower missions. The number of times I got a Muton relatively alone while having my team close by enough to pull this off has been extremely low. Actually, the only times I pulled this off was always against a larger number of enemies. But maybe my run was a little unusual.

Regarding the situation you describe: if my team is able to hard control the two enemies so trivially, I'm pretty sure they can hard control all three enemies without resorting to this "exploit", so winning the situation anyway. I don't see this as a balancing issue if it's only a problem in easy cases.
llll BlackFlag
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Re: Combatives fix

Post by llll BlackFlag »

I agree combatives may be too strong - I just dislike balancing when the change makes an ability/item/etc. still overpowered some of the time, and underpowered the rest of the time. In my opinion it should be consistently less good. For example with combatives there should be a low chance to counter attack and a high chance that the hit will land, but every melee is reduced to a graze. This way it's not an infinite lock-down, and you aren't getting slaughtered 10% of the time either, it also sticks with the theme of high dodge that the skill provides.
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