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xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:30 am
by Jacke
In his last few videos, xwynns has been trying to stealth then fight more missions with 5-7 troops rather than almost completely stealth with 2-4. His latest one, #77, is rather intense.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:17 am
by marceror
I nearly wept.

I'm not sure why the idea of going through a few missions with no combat is regarded as a bad thing by Xavier, and apparently others on the Long War team. It seems like they're determined to prevent it, but for me, it's fun when I'm able to pull that off. Some missions, I can. Others I can't just due to positioning of enemies and choice I make to reach the target relative to them.

At least 90% of my missions are combat oriented, and only 1 out of 10 of my squads is stealth oriented. I hope Pavonis won't go too far in trying to prevent stealth missions. For me, its usually just the jailbreaks that I will attempt this on, and those don't happen all that often.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:18 am
by marceror
By the way, there's already a thread in long war 201 related to this LP.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:54 am
by Saph7
Yeah, I watched it. My thoughts were 'and this is why you don't try to use 4-5 man combat squads past the early game'.

It's just the way LW2 combat works. Doing a combat mission with 8 soldiers is easy; doing it with 6 is twice as hard as with 8; doing it with 5 is twice as hard as with 6; doing it with 4 is more than twice as hard as with 5; doing it with 3 on anything above Extremely Light is almost impossible without extreme cheese. You can sometimes manage it in early on because you're going up against 4 HP enemies that you can one-shot, but you can't get away with it in the late game.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:56 am
by Jacke
And with wonderful additions like mid-to-late game extra Faceless and Chryssalids being active seeking land minds, stealth missions better bring along a combat mission wrapper if they expect to succeed. At least with the Faceless, you can see where the mines might be and a few soldiers might have the firepower to put down one or two of the 12hp and even the 18hp ones. But when the Bugs come out, you'd better be packing lots of medkits and ready on every move to handle a surprise. Don't get too spread out but don't get too bunched up. Remember, minefields alone are never a problem, so the enemy always covers them by fire.

And before hitting either challenge, you'd better have a good barracks full of leveled troops with upgraded equipment so they can face the greater challenge, not to mention fielding enough larger squads to keep doing enough missions to advance the resistance and oppose the AVATAR Project.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:55 pm
by Stroggus
Yep, only thing that can F you up are "bad activations". I hope in the XCOM 3 they will either somehow improve pods mechanic or just come up with better idea, so that battles would be fair and challenging. With current system if you are lucky and didn`t have "bad activations" you are just wiping floor with aliens, otherwise they are wiping floor with you (if you don`t have squad of 10 MSGTs or something)

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:16 pm
by mr_j936
I did weep a bit :( So much went wrong in that mission, the Chryssalid activation on the concealed shinobi, and the activation of 3 pods at once. The sharpshooter not having a good place to stand and shoot, bad luck with aims...
It was tragic.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:36 pm
by Alketi
Saph7 wrote:Yeah, I watched it. My thoughts were 'and this is why you don't try to use 4-5 man combat squads past the early game'.
Yep. This is why I asked in another thread whether or not people would even consider 5/6 man missions that are Light difficulty. I never run a Light difficulty Guerrilla Op. Period. And, given the risks, I won't take less than 6 on Very Light. Xavier's video proves why.

That was an absolutely brutal mission. I felt really bad for him and his campaign. I always enjoy his gameplay, dialogue, and video editing. All world class. He's the best LW2 "streamer" on the Internet.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:57 pm
by nightwyrm
You know a mission's gone really bad when it hinges on the success of a ~50% shot.

Watching the video, I'm not even sure there was much he could've done better, except maybe deciding to pull the plug earlier and try to save as many as he could. Yeah, he got unlucky sometimes and missed/grazed a bunch of shots. But you always have to account for missing and grazing shots.

Even if he had made the double-barrel shot, he'd still have to hit a bunch of shots afterwards to clear the map. Even if he managed that, he doesn't have a lot of turns left to kidnap/kill the VIP instead of just everybody running for the evac.

I think he triggered 3 pods of 3 and 2 drones on a Light mission, which means there should still be another pod out on the map somewhere....

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:09 pm
by mr_j936
Maybe if he had a gunner instead of the sharpshooter for suppression, things may have been slightly better...
One thing is for sure, disco cadey would have lived if a gunner was sent instead :(

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:18 pm
by nightwyrm
mr_j936 wrote:Maybe if he had a gunner instead of the sharpshooter for suppression, things may have been slightly better...
One thing is for sure, disco cadey would have lived if a gunner was sent instead :(
I think maybe he brought a Sharp along so he can snipe the VIP as a plan B. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you'd bring a Sharp on a timed mission.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:00 pm
by JulianSkies
He also had some incredibly awful luck too, such a large amount of high chance shots missing, incredibly low chance shots hitting him. The downward spiral started when that 4% crit landed.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:43 pm
by andanteinblue
Saph7 wrote:Yeah, I watched it. My thoughts were 'and this is why you don't try to use 4-5 man combat squads past the early game'.
Isn't that why he's doing it though? He's a tester for Pavonis, and they want to know the actual viability of medium size squads past the early. Presumably, they want to make fielding those squads a viable option, and they need data on how well that strategy is performing currently.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:16 pm
by LordYanaek
JulianSkies wrote:He also had some incredibly awful luck too, such a large amount of high chance shots missing, incredibly low chance shots hitting him. The downward spiral started when that 4% crit landed.
Somewhat true. His ranger would never have missed the Sectoid Commander if not for some really heavy Red Fog.
"medic" being so far away didn't help of course.

However i think the sh... hit the fan when the chrysalid spotted his shinobi. Note to self : when this DE is running always bring some Battle Scanners.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:20 pm
by JulianSkies
LordYanaek wrote:
JulianSkies wrote:He also had some incredibly awful luck too, such a large amount of high chance shots missing, incredibly low chance shots hitting him. The downward spiral started when that 4% crit landed.
Somewhat true. His ranger would never have missed the Sectoid Commander if not for some really heavy Red Fog.
"medic" being so far away didn't help of course.

However i think the sh... hit the fan when the chrysalid spotted his shinobi. Note to self : when this DE is running always bring some Battle Scanners.
Hrm... That's true. Chryssalid landmines are non ironically one of my favorite things in this game.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:02 pm
by sacho
Saph7 wrote:Yeah, I watched it. My thoughts were 'and this is why you don't try to use 4-5 man combat squads past the early game'.

It's just the way LW2 combat works. Doing a combat mission with 8 soldiers is easy; doing it with 6 is twice as hard as with 8; doing it with 5 is twice as hard as with 6; doing it with 4 is more than twice as hard as with 5; doing it with 3 on anything above Extremely Light is almost impossible without extreme cheese. You can sometimes manage it in early on because you're going up against 4 HP enemies that you can one-shot, but you can't get away with it in the late game.
But this wasn't quite a 5man mission - Scruffy didn't contribute much to the fight. That's one issue I have with stealthy shinobis. They're great when you're completing missions "optimally" - stealthy 2mans or giant slugfests. But on a 5man mission you just can't afford to have a "deadweight" stealthing around while the squad is engaged. You need to have all your soldiers taking decisive action to eliminate the pods you triggered. A RD grenadier could have easily kept the situation under control, while providing the same shooty power, for example.

One thing joinrbs talked about when planning his builds is that most missions have one critical round where you must be able to perform to 200% of your ability. In that critical round, the shinobi concealed and ran off, so the squad was essentially a 4man. If we take your numbers, that made the mission twice as hard as it needed to be.

This situation reminds me of the early missions xwynns did, which were 4-5manish "stealth" missions. In almost every such mission, the shinobi had to pull their weight or even carry the mission on their own(Johnny Maple!). I don't think it's viable to take a pure "scout" on such a mission.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:45 pm
by nightwyrm
sacho wrote:
Saph7 wrote:Yeah, I watched it. My thoughts were 'and this is why you don't try to use 4-5 man combat squads past the early game'.

It's just the way LW2 combat works. Doing a combat mission with 8 soldiers is easy; doing it with 6 is twice as hard as with 8; doing it with 5 is twice as hard as with 6; doing it with 4 is more than twice as hard as with 5; doing it with 3 on anything above Extremely Light is almost impossible without extreme cheese. You can sometimes manage it in early on because you're going up against 4 HP enemies that you can one-shot, but you can't get away with it in the late game.
But this wasn't quite a 5man mission - Scruffy didn't contribute much to the fight. That's one issue I have with stealthy shinobis. They're great when you're completing missions "optimally" - stealthy 2mans or giant slugfests. But on a 5man mission you just can't afford to have a "deadweight" stealthing around while the squad is engaged. You need to have all your soldiers taking decisive action to eliminate the pods you triggered. A RD grenadier could have easily kept the situation under control, while providing the same shooty power, for example.

One thing joinrbs talked about when planning his builds is that most missions have one critical round where you must be able to perform to 200% of your ability. In that critical round, the shinobi concealed and ran off, so the squad was essentially a 4man. If we take your numbers, that made the mission twice as hard as it needed to be.

This situation reminds me of the early missions xwynns did, which were 4-5manish "stealth" missions. In almost every such mission, the shinobi had to pull their weight or even carry the mission on their own(Johnny Maple!). I don't think it's viable to take a pure "scout" on such a mission.
Which is why I don't like Conceal being moved to MSgt in the next patch. Yes, Conceal helps 1-men stealth missions, but it's easy to work around not having it in those missions. Where it really shines is in mid-size missions where you need to bring a Shinobi into a fight for a turn or two and then have him go back to scouting afterwards.

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:06 pm
by LordYanaek
nightwyrm wrote: Which is why I don't like Conceal being moved to MSgt in the next patch.
Wow, is that so?
It must have shown in the patch notes recently. I agree it seems like a really bad idea. :shock:

EDIT. Not in the 1.3 patch notes. Where did you read this?

Re: xwynns Long War 2 Legend #77 video

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:19 pm
by nightwyrm
LordYanaek wrote:
nightwyrm wrote: Which is why I don't like Conceal being moved to MSgt in the next patch.
Wow, is that so?
It must have shown in the patch notes recently. I agree it seems like a really bad idea. :shock:

EDIT. Not in the 1.3 patch notes. Where did you read this?

Xavier mentioned it in one of his recent videos.