Feedback for the "firing on activation" mechanic

[Aetherlift]

I think it's a cool mechanic. Overall it's usually an acceptable level of risk because only a small number get to fire, so they're unlikely to kill anyone unless you get extremely unlucky, and pods hearing you fighting and coming to investigate is very thematically cool. The major exception is when they patrol in from the side and get like 2-3 free flanking shots, which is *wildly* more dangerous. That's kinda the worst case scenario, that every action you take in the tactical layer is intended to prevent. It doesn't feel particularly fair for enemies that you never got a chance to interact with to just suddenly get the benefit that aliens normally have to win the positioning game and outmaneuver you to get, for free. Like, i guess it's not totally free because it's based on sound, but i don't think "don't fire your weapons" is really a reasonable thing you can do to counterplay this. If that ever did become the optimal strategy, that's definitely a bad thing, because the stealth mechanics in XCOM 2 aren't deep enough to be interesting enough to be the main thing you do in missions.

I think it's worth considering that maybe it should work like seekers in LW1, where they couldn't use stealth to get behind you and then unstealth and take a flanked shot (or maybe they could? but i've only ever seen them take flanked shots when they're visible, and unstealth to take shots at people in cover). Basically, i think if a pod patrols into you they should be able to shoot people who are in cover, or overwatch as a way to threaten people who are flanked, sort of like how in LW1 aliens would suppress people who were flanked. That way they're still threatening, but the threat level is more proportional to how much chance you had to interact with them beforehand.

[Arcalane]

It... kind of is? As I understand it pods have three alert levels; green, yellow, and red.

Green is when they're just putzing around patrolling or standing guard or whatever.

Yellow is when they've heard a noise (like a gunshot or a screaming civ) and are moving to investigate.

Red is when they've seen you and are actively engaging.

Depending on which alert status a pod is in when it's tripped and which turn it's tripped on, the actions they can take vary. If a pod is caught on the XCOM turn at low alert, they'll typically only take defensive actions. If they stumble onto you on their turn in high alert though, they may very well take offensive actions.

[GavinRuneblade]

If I'm reading him correctly he's asking something different. What he is asking is when a pod walks into you, not when you reveal it.

So if the pod walks for one action, spots you and gets a free scatter into cover, giving them a whole extra (third) action to shoot you when you never had a chance to interact with them he feels is too much.

So he is asking if instead, as a third action, they be limited to suppressing or supporting rather than killing.

[mattprice516]

One detail of the system that may not be immediately apparent is that reflex actions can only happen when aliens activate on *their* turn. If you activate them on *your* turn they don't get reflex actions. Just an FYI.

[Ellie]

Nothing quite like having a snek activate and crit instakill a soldier during the same turn ;-;

[mattprice516]

Yeah I had that the other day. Poor, poor Gunner.

[Aetherlift]

yeah for clarity i'm talking about when a yellow alert level enemy patrols into you on the alien turn, and then some of them fire before your turn starts, i'm suggesting that in this situation, they be limited to shooting people who are in cover, or overwatching to try to pin the people who are flanked

[JLtheking]

An interesting thing I noticed when browsing the .ini is that the free reflex actions given to aliens are not guaranteed. IIRC on Veteran the chance is 20% and on Commander and Legend the chance is 33%.

So if you're having a situation where the entire pod takes flanking shots on you on reveal... That's XCOM, baby!

[ShockmasterFred]

I think it's a cool mechanic. Overall it's usually an acceptable level of risk because only a small number get to fire, so they're unlikely to kill anyone unless you get extremely unlucky, and pods hearing you fighting and coming to investigate is very thematically cool. The major exception is when they patrol in from the side and get like 2-3 free flanking shots, which is *wildly* more dangerous. That's kinda the worst case scenario, that every action you take in the tactical layer is intended to prevent. It doesn't feel particularly fair for enemies that you never got a chance to interact with to just suddenly get the benefit that aliens normally have to win the positioning game and outmaneuver you to get, for free. Like, i guess it's not totally free because it's based on sound, but i don't think "don't fire your weapons" is really a reasonable thing you can do to counterplay this. If that ever did become the optimal strategy, that's definitely a bad thing, because the stealth mechanics in XCOM 2 aren't deep enough to be interesting enough to be the main thing you do in missions.

I think it's worth considering that maybe it should work like seekers in LW1, where they couldn't use stealth to get behind you and then unstealth and take a flanked shot (or maybe they could? but i've only ever seen them take flanked shots when they're visible, and unstealth to take shots at people in cover). Basically, i think if a pod patrols into you they should be able to shoot people who are in cover, or overwatch as a way to threaten people who are flanked, sort of like how in LW1 aliens would suppress people who were flanked. That way they're still threatening, but the threat level is more proportional to how much chance you had to interact with them beforehand.

I imagine it doesn't feel particularly fair to the aliens that we get Concealment and a chance to ambush them on every mission.

The best way to mitigate damage from this is to make sure that you end your soldiers turns with them in cover against areas that you haven't scouted. After breaking Concealment, you usually have at least a good educated guess where the next pod is lurking, so play as if there is an already active pod in that direction and take cover according to that. It's worked well for me so far. Good luck Commander!

[Aetherlift]

I imagine it doesn't feel particularly fair to the aliens that we get Concealment and a chance to ambush them on every mission.

The best way to mitigate damage from this is to make sure that you end your soldiers turns with them in cover against areas that you haven't scouted. After breaking Concealment, you usually have at least a good educated guess where the next pod is lurking, so play as if there is an already active pod in that direction and take cover according to that. It's worked well for me so far. Good luck Commander!

I mean... the aliens get infinite units? XCOM is inherently unfair, because a single loss for XCOM is more detrimental to them than a hundred losses for the aliens. It's not balanced like a 1v1 pvp game.

[Devon_v]

Shinobis and Battle Scanners. If a pod flanks into you and you didn't know it was there, you didn't check your flanks before engagement.

You have the smaller force. Your guys are not expendable. You have to know what you're getting into before you pull the trigger.

[ShockmasterFred]

I imagine it doesn't feel particularly fair to the aliens that we get Concealment and a chance to ambush them on every mission.

The best way to mitigate damage from this is to make sure that you end your soldiers turns with them in cover against areas that you haven't scouted. After breaking Concealment, you usually have at least a good educated guess where the next pod is lurking, so play as if there is an already active pod in that direction and take cover according to that. It's worked well for me so far. Good luck Commander!

I mean... the aliens get infinite units? XCOM is inherently unfair, because a single loss for XCOM is more detrimental to them than a hundred losses for the aliens. It's not balanced like a 1v1 pvp game.

Lol, okay.