LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

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Dwarfling
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby Dwarfling » Thu May 10, 2018 7:01 pm

Back to Grenadier talk: I find it hard to fit smokes in my grenadier slots. Lately I've been doing all Sappers with plans on respect one or two of the good aim ones when they can just switch to Stings. The problem is that those only seem to be the Grenadiers that got random promotions, because I'm normally picking tank stat rookies for Grenadier training in the GTS: high HP and def (or at least not negative) give you an easier time ditching the plating for another grenade without fear of death, if high on defense they'll rarely be targeted for shots when on full cover.

Why all Sappers? Rapid Deployment Grenadiers are rather weak early game until you get to Incendiaries. And even when you get them Sappers still feel stronger until RD get Stings.

And when you get a RD Grenadier to Stings, the way to go seems to be packing as many flashbangs as you can fit, with maybe an incendiary.

When I find room for smoke it's usually on other classes, like Combat Protocol Specialists, Sharpshooters and maybe some Rangers.

gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby gimrah » Fri May 11, 2018 9:18 am

I wanted to make sapper work but I just couldn't.

Early on removing one piece of cover, but only some cover, is of marginal incremental value early on when grenades are more useful for their damage. And there aren't any high hp dangerous enemies very early on.

Once T2s come along damage grenades are underwhelming for damage so it's just cover destruction some of the time.

Once you get incendiaries the damage perks synergise nicely, so there's that.

By the time you actually get plasma grenades it's way to late for them to be any kind of power spike. And they are expensive.

Meanwhile RD action economy is awesome on GOps and any time there's a big turn.

Smoke build / damage hybrid can be nice: RD->HO->BC/Form->DS->BB->VM->FK.

Otherwise I take smoke on stand-off missions and also one on RD grenadiers with weak defensive stats where I felt I had to take formidable. In the latter case, you may as well take one smoke and one flash for flexibility. At least until sting, and then decide based on mission.

SpinDoctor
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby SpinDoctor » Fri May 11, 2018 3:37 pm

For me, Rapid Deployment is always the first pick, since sapper is unreliable and needle has little value. Early game loot is pretty underwhelming, so if I blow some up to save my guys, oh well. Then Heavy Ordinance, and Bluescreen Bombs. Boosted cores is "meh", but the chance to take Mechs out of the fight (buying yourself some time is crazy useful) from that point of the campaign on, as well as stacking with sting grenades is a magnitude more effective than that lonely one extra point of damage from Boosted Cores. Once good (lucky) hit and you can stun an entire pod, no matter the size or composition. Volatile mix, then full kit to finish it off.

I know some people like to Respec Grenadiers, but I hate respecting soldiers, so I just pick the things I know will work best later on, when it really matters and deal with any early game weaknesses in some other way.

Statwise, my grenadiers have no real requirements. Medium mobility, Med/Low aim and decent defense, I guess. You honestly don't need good stats to sit in the back and drop bombs that never miss... I don't even bother to give them vests since a good bit of the time, they never even see the enemy, but they do get caught up in some fights occasionally. I give them a vest when they make MSGT since I figure they earned one... 80% of my engagements are started with an flashbang/sting grenade ambush, OW shots from the two Rapid Reaction Rangers that I always bring, followed by clean up with whoever is left. The rapid deployment means that if I need to call "broken arrow" and launch some fire, I can. By the time I get incendiaries, I don't even bother with plasma grenades. I don't do defensive builds, so no smoke at all. The best defense is a strong offense.

In most engagement, the enemy never gets to fire a shot. Even once I'm revealed, my Shinobi become the artillery spotter with everyone else out of LOS and I do the above. Works most of the time. Mods that tell you when you will activate a pod is pretty crucial for this to work though.
Last edited by SpinDoctor on Fri May 11, 2018 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dwarfling
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby Dwarfling » Fri May 11, 2018 3:49 pm

It's a give and take deal. Sapper gives you an option against targets behind full cover that can't be flanked. RD puts out a debuff while other characters solve that issue. My issue is that there aren't a whole lot of solutions to that problem that can fit into a 5-man GOp team, and if the Grenadier isn't the one solving it then what am I bringing a Grenadier for then?

And about unreliability: that's only when you don't know how Sapper and throwing angles behave.

SpinDoctor
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby SpinDoctor » Fri May 11, 2018 3:55 pm

Dwarfling wrote:It's a give and take deal. Sapper gives you an option against targets behind full cover that can't be flanked. RD puts out a debuff while other characters solve that issue. My issue is that there aren't a whole lot of solutions to that problem that can fit into a 5-man GOp team, and if the Grenadier isn't the one solving it then what am I bringing a Grenadier for then?

And about unreliability: that's only when you don't know how Sapper and throwing angles behave.

The only time I go with 5 man squads are when they are all MSGTs and even then, it needs to be a critical mission that I must do and have little time. I like to have enough personnel to deal with the unexpected.

But you are correct that I don't know about throwing angles. It never occurred to me to consider that. Close has been good enough for horseshoes and hand grenades since the beginning of time.

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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby SonnyWiFiHr » Fri May 11, 2018 5:39 pm

Salvo for sapper is not bad choice. If you can't destroy you can hurt - Twice.
RD will benefit more from Volatile Mix but heavy Plasma grenade build needs more actions.

This all depends where you are in game.
Spring - you need 3x RD for Lib1 and Tower and one Sapper (last). Flashbang is weapon of choice. You are opening the pods with grenades so first perks are not important that much. This is everybody have grenade, flashbang, smoke and no equipment period.

Summer - Plasma / Incendiary Grenade (needs Volatile Mix) . Grenadiers should be on vacation if they can't shoot. Other classes are mature now and you should be able to bypass high cover problem. Grenadiers still can open the pod for lousy damage if they must be deployed but you will recover from low supply issue eventually. Sapper can produce lots of damage quickly and if you choose Salvo - twice. RD is still "shining" on Lib 1 and Tower missions

Autumn - not there jet but everybody is rich in autumn.

This is link to thread how to plan interception of Enemy Materiel. (Plasma in June)
http://www.pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB ... UFO#p51073
The Preacher

gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby gimrah » Sun May 13, 2018 10:05 am

Boosted cores is nice in the mid game. Mainly for incendiaries because it also affects tick damage, so it's effectively +3 damage on those. Would be great with gas if gas didn't suck.

Bluescreen is pretty good. I do like formidable though on a class that needs its slots for grenades and is also a natural user of exo armour (flimsier than predator). You can also dump flashbangs entirely if you just go for smoke and damage.

Psieye
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby Psieye » Mon May 14, 2018 1:56 pm

SpinDoctor wrote:The only time I go with 5 man squads are when they are all MSGTs and even then, it needs to be a critical mission that I must do and have little time. I like to have enough personnel to deal with the unexpected.

Mmm yeah, that's kind of what Legendary makes players do. Even on Commander, many a time I've sent a 6-man squad only to regret it because I can't respond to something that comes up later. It's surprising how often an extra delay of 1d 20h (iirc) is really inconvenient. Veteran lets you infiltrate to 100% quicker and makes it slightly easier to detect missions in good time. My brief venture into Legendary had me fielding 4-man squads at times because I got too greedy.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd

gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby gimrah » Mon May 14, 2018 8:09 pm

On Commander and Legend I would expect to field 5 man squads as standard, especially before tactical infiltration GTS bonus. I mostly wouldn't bother fielding more than 6 even if the timer allowed unless it was more than very light or very early game to train rookies.

4 man squads can get hairy. I'll do it with 4 good soldiers if the mission is ex light, important and it's something like a hack workstation, where rnfs aren't likely to be too much of an issue. Like Lib1.

SpinDoctor
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby SpinDoctor » Tue May 15, 2018 4:57 pm

gimrah wrote:On Commander and Legend I would expect to field 5 man squads as standard, especially before tactical infiltration GTS bonus. I mostly wouldn't bother fielding more than 6 even if the timer allowed unless it was more than very light or very early game to train rookies.

4 man squads can get hairy. I'll do it with 4 good soldiers if the mission is ex light, important and it's something like a hack workstation, where rnfs aren't likely to be too much of an issue. Like Lib1.

I usually take 6 as the standard. I generally have designated squads so I don't have to think much about who's going where, but last mission I sent a totally random and somewhat green set of soldiers on a EX light mission that turned hairy pretty quickly.

I had 2 SQ Rangers, a mid/low level Psi, a LCPL Technical, SGT specialist and a MSGT Assault. No officer, no scouting, no grenades. Definitely not my usual MO, but strength 2 region, EX light. What could go wrong? So of course I got spotted by multiple pods at the same time. The saving grace in the mission was a lucky mind control of a Muton that did quite a bit of grenade damage (Officer started burning, Advent gunner was down to 2 HP) while soaking up a lot of bullets. I appreciated that one extra squadmate, while he lasted, lol.

gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby gimrah » Tue May 15, 2018 5:55 pm

Yeah my comments assume the soldiers' level and equipment are appropriate to the stage of the game. Fairly obviously if you send squaddies out in late game they will struggle to be relevant.

SpinDoctor
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby SpinDoctor » Tue May 15, 2018 6:12 pm

Yeah... At the time, I had a good reason for sending that weak squad out for that particular mission including the fact that I had my other 3 squads out at the time. But after it was over, I couldn't remember why I did it. They made it out fine, with no injuries and I'm perfectly ok with luck being on my side sometimes... They acquitted themselves very well. It was actually a more interesting mission than sending out a bunch of MSGTs. I'm at the campaign point where XCOM tech outstrips Advent tech, so missions are fairly easy with high level troops. But I know that will not last long.

So, although, it's not that late in my game that I can't send a few weak guys out to do a job, it's something I never do normally. Now that I think of it, one reason was to see what would happen and the main reason was I thought it was a facility lead. Scientist, no PoI. My technical never gets out for fresh air and with 20 mobility, fire and a rocket, I figured they would be ok since Advent likes to bunch up. And again, now that I think of it some more, I may have lost the lead, if there was one, because I ended up burning one set of guys and I got a "loot destroyed" notice.

Now I'm sad...

gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby gimrah » Wed May 16, 2018 4:19 pm

As I understand it facility leads are an 'intel package'. So if you see a mission without an intel package in the reward then it's not a facility lead mission. Pretty certain it's not from a loot drop anyway.

SpinDoctor
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby SpinDoctor » Wed May 16, 2018 4:25 pm

gimrah wrote:As I understand it facility leads are an 'intel package'. So if you see a mission without an intel package in the reward then it's not a facility lead mission. Pretty certain it's not from a loot drop anyway.

You are absolutely right, because the next mission I ran after that one was a scientist with an intel package and I did get a facility lead. And as you say it wasn't in a loot drop. It was just in the list of artifacts. So now I can file that away in the "stuff I should know, but will forget at some point..." slot of my brain.


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