LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby SonnyWiFiHr » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:17 pm

I have problem with builds posted here. Playing with red fog on Legendary
I m dealing so low damage with normal builds.
Encountered in April Bersereker, 2x Muton Centurion and 3x MEC, Shielbearer. Almost lost all best soldiers because Rapid Deployment do not help clearing this kind of pod.
Picking any de-buffing perks make pod of 6x Sectoid or 6x Viper your last pod with that squad. Little red fog is not enough.
Any enemy with high dodge must get grenade. 120 Aim can miss some enemies on legendary.

One useful build must have all grenade damage perks. Stat are not important but more mobility is good. This builds are for or before May. No Heavy Armor ( I really doubt that you can afford even one)
Sapper
Heavy Ordinance
Boosted Cores
HEAT Warheads or Tandem Warheads ( I need both)
Biggest Booms
Volatile Mix
Combat Engineer or Full Kit . (full kit for dedicated Supply Raider and they (both) need support of Airdrop Specialist)
This build will clear any pod on Veteran / Commander. So you can remove some damage perks.

Rapid deployment - for Stealth Missions only they just are not good enough for any fight that last more than one turn. But they excel in free de-buffing move. High aim + don't send them in real fight unless you plan to shoot at every pod (Extr. or Very Light Missions). Grenade with them is just a scratch but they can keep multiple pods under control for one turn. They can't kill even Drone.
This build is superior on Veteran / Commander. Add some damage perks and Support side perks -Sting Grenades and Salvo on Legendary ( they need to throw two grenades on Legendary)

Now I m starting to respec my all high aim Grenadiers to actually do some damage in critical moment.

About MEC - clear the escort and apply shred with grenade. Boomer can do that. Forget about loot - dead soldiers can't equip any . Bring some heavy hitters (Gunners) with shred and Technical with shred. Everything must have shred and AP.
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Dwarfling
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby Dwarfling » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:41 pm

The RD builds are better when the enemy numbers are higher and you need to disable a part of a pod while you kill a part of it during the first turn. They're not that great otherwise until you give them incendiaries or they reach Sting Grenades. They can still be useful tho, if the rest of the squad is geared towards tactics that don't benefit that much from the cover removal:

Typical 5-man Ex-Light GOP squad with RD:

RD Grenadier (2xflash, 2xincendiary, plating, rifle)
Bladenobi (vest, plating, medikit)
Shotgun Assault. (vest, plating, AP)
Technical. (vest, plating, flash)
OW Specialist. (plating, skulljack, ammo, rifle)

gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby gimrah » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:08 am

My grenadiers do damage in first monthwith regular grenades, mid game with incendiaries and sort of in very late game with EMP bombs.

There are significant periods in between when they just don't do much damage relative to enemy HP. And that's fine as their purpose is are debuffing enemies while others kill.

Yes they are mainly for GOps. I wouldn't take one on an HQ or GP mission, but I would on a supply raid or troop column. Especially if they get any shooty/OW perks in the AWC.

No idea how you are getting pods with beserkers and centurions in April. Unless you are doing 0% supply raids, which I don't. They are meant to be pretty much impossible now.

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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby SonnyWiFiHr » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:33 pm

Just one Heavy (April) in March they are much easier . Nice lesson for me but you can win even without Specialist. Double Area Suppression can make wonders.

Noticed that Boosted Cores and Tandem Warheads works until late May but I m getting too much minor red fog. Plasma Grenade will correct that.
Incendiary Grenade eats turns and Advent will always disperse (I can't shootout with Advent with underpants and BB gun ).
I will double production of Gunners - they rock trough whole game.
Right now my Grenadiers are shooting and I m replacing them with Technical. Wasted around 5-6 good aim-ers on them . Why they don't have any shot perks ? Center Mass is just for March and Chain Shot is miss for sure with them.

So best Grenadiers are double Gunners on mission backed by two Sharpshooters . You can win impossible and save Grenades for later .
They have best debuff - kill. Will try triple Suppression on next "impossible to win" mission with 2x Suppressor build Gunners and one Sniper Gunner
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gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby gimrah » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:01 am

I used to try and make grenadier officers if I got a high aim one. With centre mass, chain shot and hybrid perks. It just didn't work that well. If you get one with decent aim AND quick study you could do pistol perks, centre mass and still have a sting grenade and a dense smoke with RD. I guess.

I tried sapper grenadiers the last couple of campaigns. I thought I should like it because I like shooty rangers. But I find there is too much cover that sapper can't break reliably (even centred). And grenades don't do enough damage to be good after the first 2 months, the damage boost perks come too late, and plasma is also too late. So for a substantial period I'd rather have flashbangs than grenades. Might be different with lower enemy HP on lower difficulties.

Re gunners, yes I prefer them for the control role on big missions for their staying power. But suppression isn't that strong a debuff: small aim penalty and can be broken if the enemy doesn't mind being shot. So on smaller missions I prefer an RD grenadier (also higher movement with smg).

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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby SonnyWiFiHr » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:48 pm

Debuff is not important. Suppressed Advent can't use abilities and this is real control. Suppressing 3x MEC on Legendary will prevent micro missile and you will probably kill escort.

Agree on Grenadier "too late perks" but they can still "open" the pod.
Both Rapid deployment and Sapper are situational . Dense Smoke is needed on just two. Bluescreen Bombs are not needed with Gremlin Mk II and Improved skulljack.
Biggest Booms vs Sting Grenades - Plasma grenade + Biggest Booms can deal with M2 Advent (RND dmg). Same goes for Sting Grenades (50% RND ). 9 HP Advanced Trooper with 70 Aim should be in range only if you have plenty of supply to actually buy some. M3 starting with 14 HP (and +3 HP from Dark Events ) will get quite red fog only if you are lucky.
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gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby gimrah » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:48 am

Yes but enemies have a decent chance to run suppression. If you suppress a group of MECs there's a good chance one will run it, not die to the shot and then flank or missile you.

They could also just take a pot shot from suppression and if one so much as grazes then the suppression ends. I actually really like combat awareness on gunners for this reason.

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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby Psieye » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:34 am

Mmm yeah, relying solely on a single layer of suppression to keep a group of MECs under control is just asking for punishment. Double suppression would make it 93.75% chance to prevent running and an extra source of buff/debuff to further skew the Aim calculations would be when you can start to feel confident. A properly "controlled" MEC outright gives up and does nothing on its turn because it won't run, its abilities (including OW) are switched off and it can't shoot at >0%.

Now, that means a lot of your squad members are tied up in controlling MECs - you'll need to then solve "who is left to DPS?"
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd

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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby SonnyWiFiHr » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:04 pm

Technical if they stay in group for bad aim rocket.
No easy solution here if you don't have high level Sniper for killing Shieldbearer. Hacking one MEC is best option to deal with Master pod but this is May stuff where you avoid to even encounter 3x MEC (super MEC-s), 3X Mutton (Centurion of worse), Shieldbearer and some powerful Advent.
Uncontrolled Mutons can be real threat (they will prevent you from advancing). It is prolonged fight and whole pod should be covered, anything out of suppression zone must be killed. Sometimes your crit Ranger will use both barrels because there is no fighting retreat against them .

Scout Shinobi for tracking and two powerful Snipers will kill Shiledbearer from two dash position. It must be two dash position or you will have to advance to prevent micro missile spawn. Shinobi will track the pod. You will retreat for second dash or advance for double suppression. If they spot your squad you will get squad wipe. This is the tricky part. If they spend all of their action points they are easy target because you will weaken them in second dash and you will be ready to use all yours action points. This must be 8 man GOPs

I did one before Laser (without Specialists and I hit wrong button, my plan was boost ) and after that I m infiltrating to max pod size of six (Moderate, Light - Moderate) for 8 man GOPS. It is not worth doing because you must be really lucky to do it and not lose half of squad. Price is always squad wipe. Right now squad of 5 vs Light is risky because you will face 2x MEC (normal ones) 2x Mutton (centurions), Shieldbearer and suppression with one gunner is - good bye squad for month. Can't fine tune Supply raid and I had just one in May and putting 8 man on mission is luxury. Advent has stopped moving the Strength because they dropped UFOs on my full intel havens.
March is best place for 8 man Supply raid you will get one Muton and that's it but your squad will have very low chance to do it flawless - so I was spending intel for some copses and for low strength region. If you detect it - off course (it is 3-4 days mission at best)

100% supply raid will keep squad operational vs 3 corpses more
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gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby gimrah » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:57 pm

Psieye wrote:Mmm yeah, relying solely on a single layer of suppression to keep a group of MECs under control is just asking for punishment. Double suppression would make it 93.75% chance to prevent running and an extra source of buff/debuff to further skew the Aim calculations would be when you can start to feel confident. A properly "controlled" MEC outright gives up and does nothing on its turn because it won't run, its abilities (including OW) are switched off and it can't shoot at >0%.

Now, that means a lot of your squad members are tied up in controlling MECs - you'll need to then solve "who is left to DPS?"


Wait, does the aim de-buff stack for multiple suppressions?

While we're about it, do you know for sure what the aim de-buff actually is? I've seen people refer to different values.

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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby Psieye » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:29 pm

gimrah wrote:Wait, does the aim de-buff stack for multiple suppressions?

While we're about it, do you know for sure what the aim de-buff actually is? I've seen people refer to different values.
I don't know the exact debuff amount - I assumed the tooltip was accurate and went with that in my mental calculations. I don't recall any glaring moments where I discovered the tooltip's number was wrong.

The Aim debuff from multi-suppresions shouldn't stack. What does 'stack' (from what I read on forums long ago) is the AI's decision roll on whether to run the suppression or not. Each suppression has a 25% chance of being ran and each OW has a 50% chance of being ran. I also got the impression the AI doesn't realise the Aim debuff wouldn't apply if it ran then shot - i.e. if the AI calculates it has 0% hit chance while suppressed and it can't flank the gunner after moving, it gives up on moving. I haven't read the .ini or code to confirm if that's what really happens.

When I said "an extra source of buff/debuff to further skew the Aim calculations" I meant a smoke, Aid Prot or some such on the gunner(s) to push down the Aim calculation to 0%.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd

gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Grenadier builds

Postby gimrah » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:35 am

Thanks. Helpful.

Yeah I didn't mean that the AI is smart about moving but sometimes it does anyway. And if you single suppress 3 MECs there's a good chance one of them will move. Then it's a question of whether anything else has actions after that.


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