Getting big ships down

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LouisdeFuines
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Getting big ships down

Post by LouisdeFuines »

Hi there,

I am now very far in the campaign but did never manage to bring a large or very large UFO down.

What is your best strategy for this? I got 2 Firestorms with EMP. But they don`t stand a chance.
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szmind
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by szmind »

Install my Squadron Unleashed :) Will be easier :)
I managed once, only once to take down a BattleShip on Classic. And only when I finally got lucky spawn on continent with 4 Firestorms EMP/Plasma. I needed 7 engagements with them. Sent 1, activated Dodge, after second dodge animation immediate abort for no damage. This repeated 2 more times. Then 4 separate engagements. Still got lucky with the last - won by inch.
rift
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by rift »

If your two firestorms don't stand a chance it means it's very late game and UFOs have probably maxed out their HP and weapons, and you're running late on building Firestorms and better weapons. Early-mid game I took down large UFOs with Phoenix cannon and sparrowhawks. Those were good times... But even if you max out everything, you still won't dominate.

I'm guessing you're out of modules too.
The thing about the air game is that there isn't anything you can do on short notice. It's all about planning. Like for example, I try to keep at least 100 floater corpses in reserve, so I can convert them to aim modules (I always try to have 20 aim modules ready to go). Aim modules are a must have especially with EMP/Fusion. I also keep all disk wrecks so I can convert them to defense modules, but those are more rare so I try to use them against very large only.

Here is the big picture. The air game will always suck. It's meant to, even after you max out everything. You are not meant to shoot down every UFO. Get used to letting UFOs go. Get used to even losing continents, and then getting them back.

Pick your fights. In fact, you want to let go some of the UFOs on purpose.
- Let harvest/research UFOs land, so you can raid them for resources.
- Let abductors land so you can get an abduction mission which is great for reducing panic and getting lots of meld.
- Focus on attacking UFO that increase panic, e.g. terror, air raiders, satellite hunters.
- Even if you don't shoot down a UFO, simply damaging it may force it to cancel it mission. If you damage it 50% or more (you'll start seeing explosions), the UFO will leave without completing its mission.
- Cycle interceptors between the continents (Core strategy). Late game UFOs tend to focus on one or two continents. Any jet that's damaged for more than a few days should get cycled out to your 'reserve' continents that don't get much action, and replace it with a fresh one (2 days transit). This of course means you should always keep at least 1-2 empty jet slots which gives you space to transfer them. E.g. it's much better to have 29 interceptors that you can cycle, than having 30 of them that you can't cycle between continents.
- Letting a hunt UFO take out your satellite is not that bad, as long as you keep a few spare ones, and can put up another one before the end of the month, or right away. Sometimes I don't even bother attacking hunters if I can replace the satellite right away.
- Losing a continent is not too bad if your ground game is fine. In fact that can be used as a tactic to reduce alien resources. Aliens use up a lot of resources to build alien bases. If you assault and take back a continent right after you lose it, it costs the aliens dearly.
- The one time I definitely try to take out a very large is when they fly toward my HQ. I hate HQ base defense, so I try to prevent it. Btw keeping alien resources to a minimum will delay HQ defense.

Beating the game doens't mean killing everything you see. It's about strategy. Learn the UFO stances, so you'll know what to expect and how to react to them. All of this and more is explained on Ufopaedia...

https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Air ... (Long_War)
https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/UFOs_(Long_War)
https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Ali ... (Long_War)

p.s. Re: szmind and Squadron Unleashed. That mod may be fun to use, but it's no longer Long War. The air game in LW is meant to be difficult and strategic, and that mod tends to take away the strategy component or change it too much. It's good to have the option of course, for people who want easier air game.
LouisdeFuines
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by LouisdeFuines »

@Szmind, I want to give your mod a try.

One thing about the installation:
In what position do I have to copy the language lines into XcomStrategyGame.DEU? Just to the end or else?
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szmind
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by szmind »

LouisdeFuines wrote:@Szmind, I want to give your mod a try.

One thing about the installation:
In what position do I have to copy the language lines into XcomStrategyGame.DEU? Just to the end or else?
Not copy, but edit. So search (using ctrl+F shortcut) each "m_str...=" and replace anything that is after "=" with mine.

For example:
Search" "m_strReport_Subtitle="
Replace: m_strReport_Subtitle=STATUSBERICHT
With: m_strReport_Subtitle=<Bullet/> Glückwünsche! <XGParam:StrValue0/> wurde zum <XGParam:StrValue1/> befördert und kann nun ein Geschwader von <XGParam:IntValue0/> Kämpfern befehligen.

Feel free to improve the translation. I based on what is already in XComStrategyGame.DEU with a little help of Google Translator :). I have no idea whether 'Geshwader' or 'Staffel'. Or whether 'Kämpfern" is the best equivalent of "fighter" meaning "jet".

Anyway - I feel happy that those other translations are actually used by anyone :)
LouisdeFuines
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by LouisdeFuines »

Thanks, that worked!

But somehow, with your mod, all the ufos I shot at are destroyed, not just downed. Did I do something wrong? I`m using EMP weapons.

I tested it on various situations. Ufo-destructions happen in 90 % of the time.
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szmind
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by szmind »

LouisdeFuines wrote:Thanks, that worked!

But somehow, with your mod, all the ufos I shot at are destroyed, not just downed. Did I do something wrong? I`m using EMP weapons.

I tested it on various situations. Ufo-destructions happen in 90 % of the time.
Well EMP does not change the chance for UFO to be destroyed or not. It only impacts chances of getting more elerium, power sources, alloys if the UFO is not destroyed. To make sure EMP shoots down UFO I would consider editing DGC to make EMP deal less damage with every shot but increase its fire rate to get the same DPS - but with lower damage with each shot.
rift
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by rift »

szmind wrote: Well EMP does not change the chance for UFO to be destroyed or not. It only impacts chances of getting more elerium, power sources, alloys if the UFO is not destroyed. To make sure EMP shoots down UFO I would consider editing DGC to make EMP deal less damage with every shot but increase its fire rate to get the same DPS - but with lower damage with each shot.
szmind, I believe he's saying that UFOs get destroyed much more frequently after installing your mod. He's implying that when he was using EMP without your mod, he wasn't destroying 90% of UFOs. 90% is certainly too high and it shouldn't happen in LW.

Regarding the EMP chance of destroying UFO, of course it makes a difference (i'm talking about standard LW, no other mods). All weapons have a different chance of destroying UFOs because they all do different DPH (damage per hit), and have different penetration. So, it also depends what kind of UFO you are fighting.
For example, EMP vs. Plasma: EMP does much lower raw DPH, but has slightly higher penetration. As a result, the EMP does lower actual DPH against almost all UFOs, with the exception of Battleships and Overseers (those two have the highest armor, so penetration makes a big difference). This means that EMP has lower chance of outright destroying almost all UFOs.
Specifically, EMP does less than 1/2 DPH compared to plasma against low armored UFOs like scouts, fighters, raiders and harvesters, so, it has much better chance to preserve the wreck. For the rest of the armored UFOs, damage is closer to that of plasma.

If you really want to make sure you get a mission out of small UFOs, just finish it off with laser or pulse.
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szmind
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by szmind »

I underdstand the observation 'occuring after installing mod :) But you know - there is not much time since he installed the mod so I take the margin for this 'many situations'. I rarely shot down small UFOs with EMP - they usually get destroyed with higher tier weapons (like EMP).
Also I have not touched the chances of destroying UFO. There is also no 'post death' damage dealing. Like 2 bullets flying in the same time, one kills and the second just stacks damage on. I double checked and tested that kind of thing happening. This is sth that could be related to the mod - but it does not occur. EMP Cannon has not that much basic damage but it has high AP which paired with AP of Firestorm makes it a great crit-dealer against small UFO's (crit damage is double damage).

Nevertheless I will look into the issue once again :)

EDIT: Hmm, maybe this stacking post-death damage is a problem despite my efforts....
LouisdeFuines
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by LouisdeFuines »

The problem is, that even very large Ufos tend to bei destroyed by my EMP. But I need those ships go down ;)
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szmind
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by szmind »

LouisdeFuines wrote:The problem is, that even very large Ufos tend to bei destroyed by my EMP. But I need those ships go down ;)
Fix coming today. Check the site after 9.p.m.
EDIT: Fix ready - just need to wrap it before releasing. Indeed I now hardly destroy those testing Hunters. Thanks for the remark.
LouisdeFuines
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by LouisdeFuines »

So you could confirm the problem? Can the adjusted mod be now downloaded?
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szmind
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by szmind »

LouisdeFuines wrote:So you could confirm the problem? Can the adjusted mod be now downloaded?
Yes, I confirm the problem and that it is fixed. You can download updated version. I was delayed by discovering another bug - how is that nobody has noticed possibility to toggle in a jet with 'transfer' status :)
LouisdeFuines
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by LouisdeFuines »

How does your mod assign the squad leader? Or, in other words: which of the assigned aircrafts will be chosen bei the mod to be the squad leader?
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szmind
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by szmind »

As written in description. It is the ship with highest aggro. If all have the same aggro then the first leader is chosen randomly. The list of selected ships is auto sorted so leader is always on top. When during fight you withdraw leader or it is destroyed the next ship in line becomes new leader. Current leader's name is always printed on center of the fight screen.
rift
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by rift »

szmind wrote:
LouisdeFuines wrote:The problem is, that even very large Ufos tend to bei destroyed by my EMP. But I need those ships go down ;)
Fix coming today. Check the site after 9.p.m.
EDIT: Fix ready - just need to wrap it before releasing. Indeed I now hardly destroy those testing Hunters. Thanks for the remark.
szmind, you say it was a bug that most UFOs got destroyed, and you fixed it. That's good, but why would that happen if your mod wasn't somehow messing with weapon DPS/DPH to begin with? Does your mod in any way change weapon/armor/pen values? If it does please let us know and state that in the description. Full transparency is always good. I hope you're not trying to make things extra easy without informing the user :-) Thanks.
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szmind
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by szmind »

rift wrote: szmind, you say it was a bug that most UFOs got destroyed, and you fixed it. That's good, but why would that happen if your mod wasn't somehow messing with weapon DPS/DPH to begin with? Does your mod in any way change weapon/armor/pen values? If it does please let us know and state that in the description. Full transparency is always good. I hope you're not trying to make things extra easy without informing the user :-) Thanks.
It was this damage stacking. I missed it on course of multiple changes. See, the code is run in 'ticks'. And if during a 'tick' it comes time for applying damage and 3 or 4 bullets are scheduled to deal damage during this tick all of them used to be applied. In fact dealing should be stopped as soon as UFO is down. So I consider it a bug - my fault. Not that I was not aware - just I was rewriting Playback function so many times that with final version I missed one simple 04 0B pair of hexes (meaning 'return' that is 'stop').

I think that does not need to be in description :lol:
rift
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by rift »

OK, I understand the bug, but i think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't suggesting that the bug should be in the description, especially if it's fixed now.

My question is: Does your mod change weapon/armor/penetration values for individual interceptors / UFOs? For example, the values listed here for Long War: https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?tit ... or_Weapons. Does your mod change those values in any way?
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szmind
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by szmind »

Come on, rift :) Read carefully
Welcome to the air-revolution, commanders! (...) You can have any air-stats configuration and I do not intend to change it.

Also nowhere in the description do I mention changing air-stats. I see no need to say what else was not changed :) It is enough to just tell what was changed.
LouisdeFuines
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by LouisdeFuines »

Don`t know, if this is intended, but with the mod I can`t select more the two intercepters in the squadron. "Problem" doesn`t occur, when I send Firestorms.
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szmind
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Re: Getting big ships down

Post by szmind »

Squadron size is subject to limits - it is in description and Readme. Include Lt - and you can send 2 ships. Include HPTM and you can send 3 ships, Maj. for 4 and so on. I bet your Firestorm is piloted by at least Oberst :) Good guess? So he can command a squadron of 5.

Until I manage to spawn sensible pop-ups you must base on what you have read.
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