Proposal for making Mec 4,5 suits Useful

For general discussion about XCOM: Long War
Stark
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:52 pm

Proposal for making Mec 4,5 suits Useful

Postby Stark » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:02 am

It's no secret that these suits haven't received much love in the last few iterations of LW and it's easy to see why.

Jetboot module is just too good not to have- to the point it really becomes a necessity on most missions.

Body-shield for the most-part is quite a useless perk. The crit protection portion is especially useless because anyone not running their Mec with Core-Armoring is just begging for trouble. Considering the typical damage output of mid-late game foes is usually in the 12-15 damage range, not taking into account those with Heat ammo, it's conceivable that a single crit will put your Mec trooper in Med-bay for a few months. Two crits from an Aggression/LEU elite/Mechtoid and you could probably say goodbye to your Mec all together.

Which leaves us with the only real benefit to this perk: *Nearest enemy suffers -20 aim* Now if we pit that against the incredibly high value of Jetboot module, there really is no contest. From what I can tell, and to no surprise, nobody is building these suits, so why even have them ?

The current AI are just too cheeky nowadays to rely on Damage-sponge tactics and even if they were stupid enough to fire at your Tank Mec's over higher value targets, the Mec 4,5's don't provide enough defensive bonuses to where it would make a difference. In my experience, it's quite possible/probable to have zero damage differential when taking damage between the 4,5 and 6,7 suits, as we are really only talking about a 1DR disparity and 4-8 extra HP- it's simply not enough to offset the loss of utility, mobility and defense on offer with the mobility suits.

I probably don't even need to justify why those suits are so bad, but thought it needed to be said, rather than just saying the Mec 4,5's have dropped totally out of contention in the current meta.

I propose that Body-shield be removed and replaced with either Damage-control or a hybrid variant of Damage-control. My other proposal is to have a Mec item that grants Jetboot-module. Essentially retaining the tankier, slower nature of this class of suit, but making it slightly more configurable by adding a pinch of utility, granted the user wants to sacrifice an item slot to achieve this.

The option to have a heavier (viable) alternative suit variant is very appealing to me, but I don't think these suits even qualify as an "option" at this point in time.

rift
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:36 pm

Re: Proposal for making Mec 4,5 suits Useful

Postby rift » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:54 pm

I completely agree about the Body Shield default perk. Mec 4 and 5 are usually used for tanking, in which case Core armoring is a must-have item, which makes Body shield a practical joke. 100% true.

The usefulness of the Jetboot module is situational. Sure, leaping on a rooftop for the extra +20 defense is great... for that MEC. That's when the enemy will go after the rest of your soldiers sitting on the ground. And that's when you would wish you had a MEC-5 on the ground with that extra HP and DR to draw fire away from the squad.
And what about all the flat maps with no elevation bonuses (most forest maps)? Jetboots are useless there, so you want a MEC 4/5. Or two...

But I do agree that that the tanky MECs could use a little improvement. I think that the useless Body shield perk should be replaced with something like Extra Con, Damage Control or Repair Servos. Then they would be more resilient from the start, and they would have another available perk in the perk tree.

Stark
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Proposal for making Mec 4,5 suits Useful

Postby Stark » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:20 pm

One of the best aspects I've noticed about JB is that even on flat maps it still works wonders for getting over stair-wells and over embankments which serve to increase your movement efficiency. On many occasion are you able to get in range by cutting a direct line over obstacles. I also love using it to camp on top of UFO's, grabbing those elusive Meld canisters while I'm up there.

I think the benefits that I see translates better into movement economy more than anything else. JB is also godlike for raiding large UFO's though, whereas the Mec 4,5 just sits on the ground twiddling it's thumbs. I get my Pathfinders up there to solo multiple mectoids/sectopods because they can't get up lol.

I think the most important thing to note is that there are seemingly many situations where JB quite literally turns the tide of battle, I can't really say anything like that for Body-shield.

When people talk about "Tanky Mec's" they are really referring to a "Build" not the suit. Stick your Goliath in a Mec 6,7 and you will get mostly identical results as far as damage mitigation is concerned. In my experience the extra defense alone has better overall mitigation than the 4,5's purely because your Mec doesn't get shot as much, which also gives you the ability to stack it with Tac-sensors to give close to heavy cover in most engagements- far more valuable than +1DR and 4-8hp imo.

I'm not holding my breathe for a change with this mechanic as I think the team have their focus elsewhere. But if I can learn some modding I will release it as a mini-mod.

rift
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:36 pm

Re: Proposal for making Mec 4,5 suits Useful

Postby rift » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:00 pm

for a MEC tank on a flat map the +8 HP/+1 DR on a MEC-5 makes much more sense than the +8 Defense on a MEC-7. I think you confuse a tank, which needs low def to draw fire, with your other more fragile hitters who do need the high def (jetboot). They don't draw fire on high elevation so they're not tanks at all.

There are plenty of good ground tank MEC builds - Valkyrie is a great OW tank (my main type), Guardian is a Healing tank, Shogun tank clears cover, Marauder CQC tank, etc. The Goliath is the least useful of all tanks but it does soak dmg well.

Again, body shield - useless, true. It should be replaced for something that actually increases tanking and differentiates the MEC 4,5 from the rest.

Stark
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Proposal for making Mec 4,5 suits Useful

Postby Stark » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:12 am

With the Mec suits being so fragile in this version I don't like to encourage fire against them at all, unless it's a full tank-spec Goliath. I would dare not leave any other Mec within range of a LEU Mectoid leader without smoke and high innate defense roughly equaling high-cover.

Lets say you have +8 hp and +1DR, which I admit is more favorable if tanking a shot- but at the cost of -6 mobility which is a huge loss of overall strategic opportunity in most other situations. The loss of opportunity/flexibility is compounded even further by not having JB. Seems such an exorbitant sacrifice for such minimal reward.

In terms of pure overall damage mitigation, you'd do better with a Bio-tank, as they don't get hit half as much, but have the high mobility needed to exploit opportunity that the heaver suits don't allow. The only exception to this that I can see is a full tank-spec Goliath which is not reliant on suit tech to be effective. In fact, the Mec 4,5 loss of utility and opportunity is so high that I much prefer the MEC 7 for this role.

For me, JB module just opens too many doors of opportunity, and when paired with the high mobility suits, it becomes a potent strategic tool on the vast majority of maps. In fact I can't remember the last map where I didn't have a need for JB. In my eyes, the potential utility and synergy with this combination greatly surpasses any benefits I've seen with the 4,5 suits.

Height advantage from JB scores very low on my list of reasons to justify it's use, it's extremely rare that it factors in to the effectiveness of the roles I use it for. Probably useful if you use Jaegers though. I think it's likely that what we are talking about is not so much a difference of opinion, but rather a difference in play-style. I'm just struggling to see a situation where I'd want a Mec 4,5 over a Mec 7.

rift
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:36 pm

Re: Proposal for making Mec 4,5 suits Useful

Postby rift » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:52 am

you're right, we're making different points here, not really disagreeing. There's no question JB adds a lot of versatility, there's no arguing that all. You're basically saying that you try to avoid having to tank shots in the first place. Sure, if you can make that happen most of the time that's great. But reality gets in the way sometimes, and often when you have to take a shot, even from a heavy mechtoid, or worse. In fact that's when Body Shield can be very useful. If you manage to mop up the other enemies, and the big bad mec alien remains closest to your mec 5, it will have -20 Aim and can't crit it. Without that, you risk losing a more fragile mec or soldier outright.

So, the +8HP and DR combined with body shield (if you can make it work in your favor) can be the difference between life and death. But I agree that since body shield is very situational and is basically useless against many enemies, the +HP and DR alone are not good enough to make you excited about MEC 4,5 over 6,7. I wouldn't mind if the 4,5 had more HP, or have something like absorption fields instead of body shield as a starting perk.

Stark
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Proposal for making Mec 4,5 suits Useful

Postby Stark » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:23 pm

Agreed. If they came with DC and had the option of JB I'd probably consider building them. Or like you said, some more DR or HP would make them a more viable pick.

The loss of the equipment slot on the Mec 5 is also quite uhh ... devastating, to say the least. :(

Stark
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Proposal for making Mec 4,5 suits Useful

Postby Stark » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:59 pm

So far my attempts at replacing body-shield have been less than fruitful. Funny that the suit is not equippable by Mec's, but ordinary soldiers can wear it, not that I'd advise such a thing. :?

Image

A failure only paralleled by what ever this monstrosity is:

Image

Stark
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:52 pm

Re: Proposal for making Mec 4,5 suits Useful

Postby Stark » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:42 pm

Success!

I have successfully replaced Body-shield on both the 4,5 suits woohoo! Furthermore, it's easy to replace it with any perk you so desire.

In the DGC search for "MEC-4 Dauntless" or whatever Mec suit you wish to edit. Adjacent to that find "iAlloys=145120," Where "145" is the Perk ID that the suit uses. So to replace Body-shield change this number to another perk ID- I replaced it with JB so it looks like this: "iAlloys=137120,"

Similarly, you can edit the flat amount of DR that each suit provides in the same section by modifying this value "iHP=20," Where "20" signifies 2DR and "25" signifies 2.5DR and so on.

I'm still playing around with this and have yet to reach a verdict on which perk would be best in terms of balance. I think changing it to Damage control would also strike a decent balance of the suits effectiveness. The only problem with that is, it won't work for Mec troopers who already have the perk. I may need to find a way to augment a perk like DC to something that gives a flat 1DR.

Disclaimer: This might only work on newly constructed Mec suits. (untested)

Perk list:
0 ePerk_None
1 ePerk_OTS_XP
2 ePerk_PrecisionShot
3 ePerk_SquadSight
4 ePerk_GeneMod_SecondHeart
5 ePerk_LowProfile
6 ePerk_RunAndGun
7 ePerk_AutopsyRequired
8 ePerk_BattleScanner
9 ePerk_DisablingShot
10 ePerk_Opportunist
11 ePerk_Executioner
12 ePerk_OTS_Leader
13 ePerk_DoubleTap
14 ePerk_InTheZone
15 ePerk_DamnGoodGround
16 ePerk_SnapShot
17 ePerk_WillToSurvive
18 ePerk_FireRocket
19 ePerk_TracerBeams; Holo-Targeting
20 ePerk_GeneMod_Adrenal
21 ePerk_FocusedSuppression
22 ePerk_ShredderRocket
23 ePerk_RapidReaction
24 ePerk_Grenadier
25 ePerk_DangerZone
26 ePerk_BulletSwarm; Ready For Anything
27 ePerk_ExtraConditioning
28 ePerk_GeneMod_BrainDamping
29 ePerk_GeneMod_BrainFeedback
30 ePerk_GeneMod_Pupils
31 ePerk_Sprinter
32 ePerk_Aggression
33 ePerk_TacticalSense
34 ePerk_CloseAndPersonal; Close Encounters
35 ePerk_LightningReflexes
36 ePerk_RapidFire
37 ePerk_Flush
38 ePerk_GeneMod_DepthPerception
39 ePerk_BringEmOn
40 ePerk_CloseCombatSpecialist
41 ePerk_KillerInstinct
42 ePerk_GeneMod_BioelectricSkin
43 ePerk_Resilience
44 ePerk_SmokeBomb
45 ePerk_GeneMod_BoneMarrow
46 ePerk_StunImmune
47 ePerk_CoveringFire
48 ePerk_FieldMedic
49 ePerk_RifleSuppression_DEPRECATED; Pyrokinesis
50 ePerk_GeneMod_MuscleFiber
51 ePerk_CombatDrugs
52 ePerk_DenseSmoke
53 ePerk_DeepPockets
54 ePerk_Sentinel
55 ePerk_Savior
56 ePerk_Revive
57 ePerk_HeightAdvantage
58 ePerk_Disabled_DEPRECATED; Lock N' Load
59 ePerk_ImmuneToDisable_DEPRECATED; Sapper
60 ePerk_SuppressedActive
61 ePerk_CriticallyWounded
62 ePerk_Flying
63 ePerk_Stealth
64 ePerk_Poisoned; HEAT Warheads
65 ePerk_CombatStimActive
66 ePerk_Implanted; Javelin Rockets
67 ePerk_Panicked
68 ePerk_MindFray
69 ePerk_PsiPanic
70 ePerk_PsiInspiration
71 ePerk_MindControl
72 ePerk_TelekineticField
73 ePerk_Rift
74 ePerk_MindMerge
75 ePerk_MindMerger
76 ePerk_Hardened
77 ePerk_GreaterMindMerge
78 ePerk_GreaterMindMerger
79 ePerk_Evade
80 ePerk_Launch
81 ePerk_Bombard
82 ePerk_Leap
83 ePerk_Plague
84 ePerk_Poison
85 ePerk_BloodCall
86 ePerk_Intimidate
87 ePerk_FallenComrades
88 ePerk_Bloodlust
89 ePerk_BullRush
90 ePerk_HEATAmmo
91 ePerk_SmokeAndMirrors
92 ePerk_Rocketeer; Shock and Awe
93 ePerk_Mayhem
94 ePerk_Gunslinger; Ranger
95 ePerk_GeneMod_MimeticSkin
96 ePerk_ClusterBomb
97 ePerk_PsiLance
98 ePerk_DeathBlossom
99 ePerk_Overload
100 ePerk_PsiControl
101 ePerk_PsiDrain
102 ePerk_Repair
103 ePerk_CannonFire
104 ePerk_Implant
105 ePerk_ChryssalidSpawn
106 ePerk_BattleFatigue
107 ePerk_OnlyForGermanModeStrings_ItemRangeBonus
108 ePerk_OnlyForGermanModeStrings_ItemRangePenalty
109 ePerk_Foundry_Scope
110 ePerk_Foundry_PistolI
111 ePerk_Foundry_PistolII
112 ePerk_Foundry_PistolIII; Tandem Warheads
113 ePerk_Foundry_AmmoConservation
114 ePerk_Foundry_AdvancedFlight; Fire in the Hole
115 ePerk_Foundry_ArcThrowerII
116 ePerk_Foundry_MedikitII; Deadeye
117 ePerk_Foundry_CaptureDrone
118 ePerk_Foundry_SHIVHeal
119 ePerk_Foundry_SHIVSuppression; Psychokinetic Strike
120 ePerk_Foundry_EleriumFuel
121 ePerk_Foundry_MECCloseCombat
122 ePerk_Foundry_AdvancedServomotors
123 ePerk_Foundry_ShapedArmor
124 ePerk_Foundry_SentinelDrone
125 ePerk_Foundry_AlienGrenades
126 ePerk_PlasmaBarrage; Light 'Em Up
127 ePerk_SeekerStealth
128 ePerk_StealthGrenade
129 ePerk_ReaperRounds
130 ePerk_Disoriented
131 ePerk_Barrage
132 ePerk_AutoThreatAssessment
133 ePerk_AdvancedFireControl
134 ePerk_DamageControl
135 ePerk_XenobiologyOverlays; Vital Point Targeting
136 ePerk_OneForAll
137 ePerk_JetbootModule
138 ePerk_ExpandedStorage
139 ePerk_RepairServos
140 ePerk_Overdrive
141 ePerk_PlatformStability
142 ePerk_AbsorptionFields
143 ePerk_ShockAbsorbentArmor
144 ePerk_ReactiveTargetingSensors
145 ePerk_BodyShield
146 ePerk_DistortionField
147 ePerk_GeneMod_AdrenalineSurge
148 ePerk_GeneMod_IronSkin
149 ePerk_GeneMod_RegenPheromones
150 ePerk_CovertPockets; Field Surgeon
151 ePerk_CovertHacker
152 ePerk_Medal_UrbanA
153 ePerk_Medal_UrbanB; Sharpshooter
154 ePerk_Medal_DefenderA; Steadfast
155 ePerk_Medal_DefenderB
156 ePerk_Medal_InternationalA
157 ePerk_Medal_InternationalB
158 ePerk_Medal_CouncilA
159 ePerk_Medal_CouncilB; Lone Wolf
160 ePerk_Medal_TerraA
161 ePerk_Medal_TerraB
162 ePerk_Dazed; Paramedic
163 ePerk_OnlyForGermanModeStrings_AimingAnglesBonus
164 ePerk_CatchingBreath
165 ePerk_Foundry_TacticalRigging
166 ePerk_SeekerStrangle
167 ePerk_ReinforcedArmor; Hit and Run
168 ePerk_MindMerge_Mechtoid
169 ePerk_Electropulse
170 ePerk_OTS_Leader_Bonus
171 ePerk_OTS_Leader_TheLeader
172 ePerk_MAX


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