Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

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Andala
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:42 pm

Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Andala »

I think it's a bug but not sure. As the title suggests, I dont think a soldier snared by a viper should get additional fire from other advent enemies; wouldn't make sense for the viper to get shot at.
tracktwo
Long War Dev
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:43 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by tracktwo »

This isn't a bug per se, but it is something we're looking at for balance. In the base XCOM2 bound soldiers (among others) were considered by the AI to be "last resort" targets and would ordinarily never be shot at unless the AI had no other options. We changed the last resort mechanic so the AI doesn't completely ignore debilitated units, and this also included bind. In general though friendly fire with gunfire just doesn't exist in the new generation of XCOM games.
Phantom
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:03 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Phantom »

I like the new bind mechanic. I was really scared as I first encountered it. Viper binds my soldier and in my vanilla thinking i thought....yeahh lucky now the others will not shoot him and he can survive.... then my soldier became killed by two other enemies..... Now viper bind is really a threat as it should be.
Hazelnut
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:00 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Hazelnut »

Agree, I like it. Well, not when it happens to me, but generally if you can shoot the snek then advent can shoot your trooper.
Pendrako
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:03 am

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Pendrako »

I think it's fair, after all, after using Playable aliens, using YOUR Vipers that way is smart, specially for offing Officers or Shieldbearers (or any other annoying specific kinds of ADVENT)
Thrair
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:37 am

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Thrair »

Yup. I fear Vipers more than any other early-game unit because of this, by a *wide* margin.
Antigonos
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:47 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Antigonos »

Sorry but I have to disagree with you people.

LW2 doesn't pull any punches on the player but the majority of the mechanics are fair. When I lose a soldier, it's generally because I made some kind of mistake or poor decision and you know what? It's OK.

However, losing a soldier this way isn't fair at all because there's literally nothing you can do. And when a viper pulls this trick three times in a row because of the absence of cooldown, it really breaks the game and my enjoyment.

Plus, it doesn't make any sense that the viper takes absolutely zero damage when advent soldiers shoot at the entangled soldier. Same could be said when your troops shoot at the viper to liberate the soldier. I know XCOM 2 isn't always a very realistic game but in this case, it's plain stupid.

I really hope this issue will get fixed in some way for version 1.3. Because right now, I don't feel like restarting a new campaign.
justdont
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:36 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by justdont »

I'd say it's the only reason that viper constriction is actually dangerous. Without this behavior - it's an extremely weak attack (and people will be cheesing it by baiting vipers to constrict instead of shoot/spit, such as it was in vanilla).

I'm okay with toning down the tongue attack, so that it will have some cooldown or lower to-hit. But AI targeting constricted units is a very nice balance feature and it should definitely stay.
Pendrako
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:03 am

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Pendrako »

honestly, also why you, you know, focus fire on the viper first anyways. or just lob a flashbang. for the guys saying "literally nothing i can do" it's still your fault for having let a viper get close enough to tongue-yank in the first place.
TerribleName
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:23 am

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by TerribleName »

An easy 'fix' would be to give soldiers suffering from the bound condition cover defense from being surrounded by snake. A low cover bonus would increase survivability for bound soldiers somewhat and keep them from being crit to death from the exposed condition.
sectoidfodder
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:00 am

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by sectoidfodder »

Somewhat related: mind-controlled soldiers immediately stop taking cover against follow-up shots on the same turn.

It's pretty much mind control's only real threat though, otherwise it'd be worse than panic in most cases because disorienting the mind controller on the following turn means the controlled unit doesn't actually lose any actions.
Kharneth
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:28 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Kharneth »

I'll give both the viper and the soldier hard cover, no matters where they stand. This works as a workaround from the game not allowing friendly fire in not area attacks

This way you have more difficult to free your soldier because many times the vipers ends in the open when bind someone, also you can't flank it to make easy free

This also make difficult to enemies to crit to dead your soldier, even choose him for fire because AI usually shoot based on defense values
Andala
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:42 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Andala »

Now that I have played for a while longer and seen this in action I got to say it's a bit unbalanced.

Now, its fair that both the advent and xcom can shoot at the tangled "couple" but what is not fair is that advent get free crit shots if they start shooting after the viper does the pull (Xcom sure doesn't have a pullin ability therefore it's not "fair"). If there are more than one other advent your soldier is almost guaranteed dead everytime. And to clarify it means everytime there is a pull, theres a dead soldier because vipers come with their advent friends who love to shoot exposed targets. Because of its nastiness, moves must be spent to prevent the pull from happening at all costs: running away out of pulling range, crowd-controlling or killing.

I'm saying it's a bit unbalanced, and not very much so imo. Sometimes you'll simply get fucked, especially when there are multiples of the snakes running at you.

Possible balancing acts..:

-Add a cooldown to the pulling ability if there isn't one already.
-Reduce accuracy on targets in cover but increase it on flanked targets. Also increase the range a bit to compensate for the reduced accuracy.
-Only grace shots can be made to either target (both snake and xcom). Makes sense too.
-Reduced accuracy on either target (both snake and xcom). Makes sense too.
-Disable pulling ability on the retaliation moves that happen when the aliens discover you.

Some more playtesting have revealed that the pull is definitely overpowered.
Ithuriel
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Ithuriel »

tracktwo wrote:This isn't a bug per se, but it is something we're looking at for balance. In the base XCOM2 bound soldiers (among others) were considered by the AI to be "last resort" targets and would ordinarily never be shot at unless the AI had no other options. We changed the last resort mechanic so the AI doesn't completely ignore debilitated units, and this also included bind. In general though friendly fire with gunfire just doesn't exist in the new generation of XCOM games.
At a guess, I suspect that the AI will prioritize shots that are most likely to kill the target. Even though all you did was change the last resort mechanic, aliens will shoot about the bound soldier almost every time, because the target is flanked and more likely to be hit, and because they're more likely to be crit and instantly killed. Is the tongue grab simply coded as a shot, e.g. it uses the Viper hit chance and considers cover? (I'd assume it would have a heft bonus to hit). Is it instead simply a flat percentage chance to grab, regardless of all else?
tracktwo
Long War Dev
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:43 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by tracktwo »

I'd have to go inspect the AI decision log to figure out why this is happening so frequently, but it could be as you say prioritizing a killshot or it could just be the fact that the bound soldier is now out of cover giving them a big bonus to hit that soldier vs any others. If all the other potential targets are very low percentage shots they'll almost always choose the bound guy, kill shot or no. The tongue grab attack appears to just use a standard to-hit roll just like a shot, but the AI will tend to prefer it over shooting if it's available.
modjo
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:28 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by modjo »

There is a mod out there that disables viper grabs against target in full cover, I find it to be a good middle-ground for balance.

High cover would naturally make it harder for the snake to bind but this way you're guaranteed no unexpected (and for some people game breaking) tricks.
DjAci
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:07 am

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by DjAci »

Does any1 know what is the aim of the tounge attack. It happened just a few times to me in my campaign (i tried to make sure it doesnt happen as much as i could), but when it did it often got a soldier in full cover. So often in fact I got the feeling that it has a massive aim boost. A regular chance to hit in full cover is cca 30%, so either I was really unlucky, or bind has some bonus to hit.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Tuhalu »

DjAci wrote:Does any1 know what is the aim of the tounge attack. It happened just a few times to me in my campaign (i tried to make sure it doesnt happen as much as i could), but when it did it often got a soldier in full cover. So often in fact I got the feeling that it has a massive aim boost. A regular chance to hit in full cover is cca 30%, so either I was really unlucky, or bind has some bonus to hit.
Vipers have an offense (accuracy) of 75, so 30% for tongue grab against full cover is right. That's often enough to be horrifying unless you have then suppressed (disoriented,stunned or burning viper can't tongue grab and they can't be poisoned). 1 in 3 times you get wrecked.
darkerevent
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:12 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by darkerevent »

tracktwo wrote:I'd have to go inspect the AI decision log to figure out why this is happening so frequently, but it could be as you say prioritizing a killshot or it could just be the fact that the bound soldier is now out of cover giving them a big bonus to hit that soldier vs any others. If all the other potential targets are very low percentage shots they'll almost always choose the bound guy, kill shot or no. The tongue grab attack appears to just use a standard to-hit roll just like a shot, but the AI will tend to prefer it over shooting if it's available.
If I remember correctly from when I was reading the AI ini file the other day, the current system only causes a score difference of 25 between a bound (last-resort) target and an unbound one, all other factors being equal. If I'm understanding the meaning of that correctly, you'd pretty much have to have a different soldier stand exposed (e.g. a negative defense Assault tank) in order to feel sure that the AI would hit them instead of the bound person.

Personally, I question Firaxis's decision to have ever given the strangle mechanic to the Thin Man expy in the first place. I never thought I'd say this, but I miss Seekers being their own unit instead of having their immobilizing ability grafted onto the thin man's already substantial kit. Going a step further and making it a ranged grab was just silly, as it creates a situation where there's no ideal range to engage them at. I suppose that having them be scary versus isolated characters at melee range (because of constriction) but also frustrating at very long range (because of poison spit and high accuracy) is fine enough, since it punishes either being too clumped up or too isolated (which seeker + thin man alien compositions did in LW1), and that would create counterplay in the form of taking wise but well-spread cover. However, their additionally having the ability to facilitate sudden soldier death at medium-short range is a bit much; it actually reduces the tactical depth of the game by introducing yet another organic alien that must be either flashbanged or dead each turn by the end of player phase. There are already too many other units that fall into that same exact category.

If Vipers aren't changed, I'll be modding their grab mechanics in some way for my 1.3 playthrough. I'm just not sure exactly how, yet.
jfoevv820ueb
Posts: 18
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Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by jfoevv820ueb »

darkerevent wrote: ...I miss Seekers being their own unit...

If Vipers aren't changed, I'll be modding their grab mechanics in some way for my 1.3 playthrough. I'm just not sure exactly how, yet.
I'd like to see Vipers only be able to use their bind at melee range, but allow them to dash to make up for the fact that they can't turn invisible and sneak up on your troops. As it is, it really is just an instakill with no real counter other than prevent engagement in the first place (which, again, reduces the depth of gameplay and is also not really in the spirit of Long War).

Also if maybe snakes can stop deleting cover within a two-tile radius when they bind a soldier that would be neat.
The|suit
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:48 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by The|suit »

I don't think it is fair, If an Advent Heavy Gunner shoots a Viper with a bound marine. That Viper should take damage - after all it is not exactly a sniper machine gun. ( Basically I only think if it is fair IF the viper takes damage also ).
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by LordYanaek »

+darkerevent and jfoevv820ueb
Vipers and their tongue-grab are probably the biggest reason why Flashbangs are so utterly important to the point some players consider them OP. They have an insta-kill ability that requires a hard counter if you don't want to play survival-roulette and the only hard counter in the early game (which stays the best hard counter for most of the game) is the flashbang.

Totally unrelated but wouldn't a sub-forum to discuss (seriously) about specific balance issues make sense rather than the "Bug Report" or should the bug report sub be considered more of an "issue tracker"?
Ithuriel
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Re: Advent attacks on viper-snared soldier

Post by Ithuriel »

tracktwo wrote:I'd have to go inspect the AI decision log to figure out why this is happening so frequently, but it could be as you say prioritizing a killshot or it could just be the fact that the bound soldier is now out of cover giving them a big bonus to hit that soldier vs any others. If all the other potential targets are very low percentage shots they'll almost always choose the bound guy, kill shot or no. The tongue grab attack appears to just use a standard to-hit roll just like a shot, but the AI will tend to prefer it over shooting if it's available.
I'm sorry, this is more what I was referring to- just got sloppy with my terminology.
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