Shooty shinobi?

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gimrah
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Shooty shinobi?

Post by gimrah »

TL;DR - Tell me how you've had success with a shooty shinobi build. What ideal soldier stats, what perks and what weapon/gear?

I suspect most of us have made bladenobis and found them to be decent and then great when you get to reaper.

I suspect most of us have made other builds, which end up being ghetto bladenobis for most of their existence.

I always make at least one ghostwalker/covert shinobi whose primary purpose is network towers. If there is a turret above the door then you need both perks to get under it without getting detected. Otherwise you need to flip sides to the other door, which can be tricky. The soldier is also a good scout on HQs, where you really don't want to lose concealment on your phantom scout. But that soldier is often weak the rest of the time.

This time I've had modest success making my sneaky shinobi out of a high aim soldier and going for shooty perks after SGT. I've plumped for shadowstrike, HI, H&R and then I can't decide between conceal and rapid fire. Conceal has an awful lot of tactical utility, especially on big missions. But with rapid fire and HI she could move and still take 3 shots! So far, even with just shadowstrike and HI, she was critical in taking down the command pod on an August HQ, and covert/ghostwalker has been used on both HQs to avoid getting trapped. Advice welcome on that MSGT pick...

In terms of perks, I find LW is too awkward to use reliably with the sword and only useful with a gun rather later, i.e. with other perks and higher tier SMG, while blademaster and ghostwalker are both very good. However defensive perks are pretty handy because the shinobi is upfront and with poor hp progression. Executioner is similarly nice but weaker than both the alternatives IMO. Hard Target and Low Profile are really nice perks. I suspect you either go Low Profile + Rapid Fire, or Shadowstrike + Conceal. Low profile is especially nice for soldiers who like to be rooftops. Evasive is a great perk but HI is pretty awesome on a shooter who is usually flanking and usually using an SMG. Hit & Run is a must for a shooter. Tradecraft's effect is just not strong enough to tempt me.

For gear, I usually use predator for survivability or exo for a bit of punch. I'd love to take a mobility suit but that feels too glass cannon. It could work with a high hp vest like stasis or hellweave to compensate, but I usually like to use alloy plating on forward soldiers for the crit resistance when they inevitably get flanked at some point. For weapon I stick with SMG; I thought about rifle but the movement and detection range are a lot to give up on a soldier that spends much of the mission concealed. Shotgun is an option for early game if movement is high but after that I'd rather have the SMG's mobility than the shotgun's damage. For PCS I like emergency life support as all my shinobis tend to be accident prone.

For stats you want 70 aim and kind of balanced everything else I think. High hp/movement/defence/dodge are all nice but come at the cost of each other.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Dwarfling »

Negative defense Shinobis with average mobility and above average aim is what I use. And I take LW, Combatives, Hard Target and Low Profile so that they're more survivable, along with HI, H&R and RF.

For pure scout Shinobis I use the low aim, negative defense/dodge Shinobis. You can also make those Bladenobis but they're so fragile that if you have to take a risky position you might just outright lose them.

I don't train Scout Shinobis tho, at least if I have a choice. Low aim low defense usually means high mobility, which you can use for Assaults. Unless they also happened to roll high hp, in which case they can do Sapper Grenadier with a defense PCS to compensate.
gimrah
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by gimrah »

Dwarfling wrote:Negative defense Shinobis with average mobility and above average aim is what I use. And I take LW, Combatives, Hard Target and Low Profile so that they're more survivable, along with HI, H&R and RF.

For pure scout Shinobis I use the low aim, negative defense/dodge Shinobis. You can also make those Bladenobis but they're so fragile that if you have to take a risky position you might just outright lose them.

I don't train Scout Shinobis tho, at least if I have a choice. Low aim low defense usually means high mobility, which you can use for Assaults. Unless they also happened to roll high hp, in which case they can do Sapper Grenadier with a defense PCS to compensate.
Sounds like an interesting build, taking tankiness and utility from combatives along the way. But do you not find it takes a long time to get going vs bladenobi?

I came at this from the other end, thinking I need one non-bladenobi for sneaky missions so how do I get use out of her the rest of the time? And since the sneaky missions are network towers and HQs she does rank up.

Whenever I've tried for a LW-led shooty build they were just so much weaker than bladenobis they were hard to rank up and consequently never got to the power ranks. But you haven't found that?

What gear do you use? SMG? Mobility suit?
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Psieye »

My 1.4 campaign only had shooty shinobi. In retrospect, I should have taken Reaper over HI (or Evasive). Without that, they need to wait until GSgt (Hit & Run) to contribute to damage. It'd be another story if I had an abundance of cover destruction and the shinobi had pistol skills. Otherwise, Reaper -> flank swaths -> Faceoff is a better dream than having to fish for flanks or cover destruction for the +2 damage.

The purpose of a 'shooty' shinobi before the explosive action economy stuff is to scout and tank - even if concealment is lost, that shinobi should still be the one scouting. As such, high Def (and medium Mob) is a requirement to be a 'shooty' shinobi. Decent Aim is an afterthought if there's a sniper in every squad - any turn where the sniper can't get a shot, he moves and holo's so the shinobi gets to hit something reliably.

Combatitives I found to be not so useful when a buffed tank overwhelms a Stun Lancer's measly Aim - i.e. they're not charging (or shooting), they're just awkwardly OW camping (against a Shadowstep shinobi). Oh aye, you can parry more than just Stun Lancers but I've not let those other things live long enough to get to melee range.

Regarding Conceal: it can be substituted with Ghost Grenade. That means not taking Full Kit or Combat Engineer but as my smoke grenadiers hit MSgt first, I have no problem giving up those perks.

For vest, I prefer Tactical to stack armour. Hard Target on a naturally high Dodge shinobi means a lot of grazes which that extra armour is amazing for. I rely on smoke to counter the crit risk of getting flanked.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Dwarfling »

gimrah wrote:Sounds like an interesting build, taking tankiness and utility from combatives along the way. But do you not find it takes a long time to get going vs bladenobi?
I use them as pseudo-Bladenobis until they get good guns and HI, possibly still use them to fleche until H&R. They're just more difficult to use because of having to manage LW but they compensate a bit without LW because they have good aim. And lose on 1 damage, but that's not exactly why I take Blademaster for.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by gimrah »

Psieye wrote:.

Regarding Conceal: it can be substituted with Ghost Grenade. That means not taking Full Kit or Combat Engineer but as my smoke grenadiers hit MSgt first, I have no problem giving up those perks.

.

I was thinking about this. One of my officers and possibly eventual force commander is a smoky shooter grenadier with RD->CM->Form->DS->Chain->VM->ghost/FK.

Ghost would go very well with full shooter build but, unlike you apparently, I actually find this build levels up slowly - probably because it doesn't get many kills and spends time doing officer training. So I won't get that benefit until end game. And of course if I take conceal as well then it's additive.

I'm leaning towards conceal because it means in a long mission, depending how you think about it, I keep concealment for more of it and/or have an extra soldier in one more of the key fights. That would be really nice on an HQ or GP mission.

Otherwise, reaper+pistol is nice but then so of course is HI+pistol. +2 damage is a lot for a pistol.

Like the argument on armour / tac vest, given the tanky role of your build.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Psieye »

gimrah wrote: Ghost would go very well with full shooter build but, unlike you apparently, I actually find this build levels up slowly - probably because it doesn't get many kills and spends time doing officer training. So I won't get that benefit until end game. And of course if I take conceal as well then it's additive.
It does level slowly, relatively speaking. I pump ridiculous (read: 8-man) mission XP into a chosen smoke grenadier - they're never the first MSgt but they'll be way ahead of B-team guys who only ever go on ordinary-sized missions. I've been lucky to have Quick Study on a grenadier in my last 2 campaigns but even if they weren't officers I'd still do this for whoever becomes my chosen smoke guy.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

It is waste of good aim rookie. Taking few covert op perks + few blade perks make them more useful .
SMG shooter is valid if you plan to build tank and do a lot of 8 man GOPs and then just forget about stealth perks. They are visible tank.
I just can't assign 70 Aim rookie to be Shinobi. If game screw me then tank (crap mobility)
65 Aim is enough for Rapid fire and then is Assault :
Why not Snap Shoot Sniper ?
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Dwarfling »

Assuming you don't use Commander's Choice:

- Because you can't pick the stats of your Gatecrasher's Shinobi.
- Because you will want to deploy a large part of the rookies in your barracks at the start of the campaign and for the most part you don't have control over who gets what class. I normally pick the average rookies first, but that list can be very short, in which case the high aim rookies get deployed, because high aim helps everybody. So say your 2nd Shinobi might be a 3hp 69aim 15mob -5def 0dodge rookie you had to deploy. You wanted him to be a ranger or gunner but tough luck. You're gonna go bladenobi on this poor sap? What happens when he has to end up in low cover after a fleche with other things alive and they decide to shoot thru suppression?
- Maybe you don't want your Ranger and Gunners to have -9 defense. I know I don't. But you have too many Sharpshooters already and they are certainly a burden on the early game. And you're in dire need of Shinobis. Shinobi it is.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by gimrah »

That's about the measure of it. I try and hold back taking nice stat rookies on missions because the game ALWAYS screws me. 17 movement with good defensive stats but 56 aim? Sharpshooter. 13 movement? Assault. But often you don't have much choice and have to suck it up.

Class assignment is particularly an issue if you do a non-standard build order, like my last two campaigns and get to GTS late. (Mag rush highly recommended, psi rush not so much.)

But barring frustrations on a couple of 'anything but that' cases, I actually find it helps mix things up to have to work with what you have, try different builds, loadouts, PCS/AWC prioritisation. Like last campaign, 3 of my highest aim soldiers became grenadiers. I didn't want 3 smoky shooter hybrids so 2 became flash/burn hybrids with no shooting perks. I used rifles on all three throughout, prioritised them in AWC for shooty perks - and they did really well, becoming some of my earliest MSGTs. Helped that was mag rush campaign so rifle users did well.

And actually being forced away from min/maxing glass cannons and meatlumps is no bad thing on the battlefield as your soldiers end up a bit more versatile. IMO that is a much undervalued characteristic by XCom players.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Psieye »

gimrah wrote:17 movement with good defensive stats but 56 aim? Sharpshooter
I actually had the bizarre thought to build a sharpshooter tank once. Nobody cares about Aim when sniping a relay. Definitely not something you'd ever get with Commander's Choice.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Early game and snooty shinobi?
You don't need one no matter the stats , later you can build one with GTS .
Shinobi with bombs are early game thing and how game is generous you should not waste 70 aim on class that do not need it

18 movement is my max for sniper. Nickname - Dismiss button
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gimrah
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by gimrah »

Psieye wrote:
gimrah wrote:17 movement with good defensive stats but 56 aim? Sharpshooter
I actually had the bizarre thought to build a sharpshooter tank once. Nobody cares about Aim when sniping a relay. Definitely not something you'd ever get with Commander's Choice.
That soldier would have its uses. Could also be a nice holobot officer. But it would just be so painful to level up to the point of usefulness.

My guy took snapshot and just became a haven adviser. He's not even good at that. Rebels start dying he just starts crying for his mother.

I just sent him on a 2-man Dark VIP mission. Hoping the assault comes home but if the sharp doesn't make it back it's no biggie.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Dwarfling »

The 56aim rookies that turn into Sharpshooters I spec them as what I call Aim DFA Sharpshooters: you stack DGG with LW, and instead of using Laser Sight you use a Scope. They will suck until LW and won't do the damage a Crit DFA Sharpshooter will do, but they will pull their weight after that, if you can get them high ground.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by gimrah »

Eh. Sounds like carrying too much dead wood for too long. I don't like DfA sharps on timed missions so they have to earn their stripes on untimed missions, which tend to be pressured for spots at the best of times. And a DfA sniper who struggles to hit a target in full cover and doesn't even have prec shot? Eh.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Dwarfling »

They earn their early ranks on the Ex.Light missions where you can deploy 6+ soldiers. Taking another good soldier is usually overkill on those. And retaliations. When they hit Cpl (DGG), equipped with a Laser Lance and Tracer Rounds, they become pretty good soldiers at the slow missions (Destroy Relay, S&G, Retals, Troop Column).

Sure, they'll never hit as hard as a Crit DFA pulling Precision Shots with AMF, Center Mass and Talon Rounds, but they'll be consistant at hitting anything in half cover or MECs with a Deadeye (I'm assuming you take Aggression on a Crit DFA for a more reliable Kubikiri and P.Shot). That to me is more valuable than being -1 on your barracks from the start or having said soldier sit as advisor doing diddly squat.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Psieye »

There's definitely a difference between the timed missions. I have no qualms bringing immobile soldiers on a mission where I throw the evac flare. I have little qualms bringing a 13 Mob soldier to a S&G mission, especially later on when I tend to do these at Heavy (meaning 8-man so the slow guy never has to open a crate) with an officer to Intervene the timer.

"Shoot at squadsight" is extraordinarily powerful. If I can't arrange a flank shot for my sniper every time he wants to shoot, I'm in a pretty bad position. The sniper does not move so everyone else (including the enemies) must move to let the sniper get flank shots. The AI is very cooperative with this as it can't cope with squadsight positions. I have had "kill tiles" where enemies die on the exact same tile turn after turn to a sniper. Incidentally I once had a "kill tile" that was 1 away from a full cover rock - 7 enemies (over several turns) died to mass OW on that exact tile while trying to reach the rock (Hail of Bullets or Incendiaries was required to free up that rock from Sidewinders).
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by gimrah »

I would agree about timed missions not being the same from a squad composition perspective. But it only take me so far:

Extractions don't require you to travel that far because you don't have to reach an objective and then go to an evac somewhere else. So even on the big maps you can just press steadily forward with a fighty squad. I could actually see using a DfA sniper on those, although I'd prefer snapshot for the flexibility.

S&G I consider differently. They are the same before you breach the compound, but once inside I find sharpshooters less useful due to LoS issues, especially DfA. I actually favour a breacher squad for those, with assault / sawn-off ranger, bladenobi, technical, maybe grenadier, supported by a snapshot sharp to activate from squadsight and then run around.

Relays vary. Usually I find you get to the objective and have to fortify while you chip away at it. Sharps are usually a good bet in those squads. Unless you get unlucky and the relay is inaccessible and you have to get right in close.

Hacks are a somewhat similar story, but the sharp doesn't have the additional utility of hitting a relay, so I'd rather have a gunner for the control options.

For jailbreaks, vehicle rescues, rescue from cell and Dark VIP missions, mobility is king and snapshot sharp in mobility armour is the only variant I would consider.

So that's only really extracts and relays where I might want to bring a DfA sharp.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Psieye »

I find the largest benefit snipers bring is switching on pods from squadsight. When I know where the pod is and that they're on Red Alert, they become predictable which is about as good as dead to me (assuming I'm not behind on tech or something). I can position my entire squad (tank, flankers in hiding, etc) and wait for the pod to behave as I want them to. The +aim of DfA for extreme range sniping is useful even without high ground. My latest campaign (with the "rapid holo only" house rule) found that holo snipers (with high aim) do a reasonable job too when their instant holo isn't on cooldown. I care less whether the activating snipe actually kills anything, the pod becoming predictable is the objective.

So for S&G compounds with pods inside the building, I have to get them out for the sniper to be useful. Scanning Protocol (or other means) then EXO punching through the walls/ceiling is an excellent way to make pods somewhat-predictable (it's hard thinking in 3D) without ever entering the compound. One way or another, they'll come out after being tagged by EXO which helpfully even leaves the walls intact most of the time. It eats up some time so I'm often burning 10 intel on S&G in the midgame.

I try to bring a smoke grenadier with 1 Shaped Charge and Adv Grenade Launcher for relays in the midgame. Hopefully there's a technical too to more conveniently remove LoS blockers but I might need the rocket for pods. Mind, since shotguns never miss relays from maximum range, often I end up not needing the sniper to kill the relay but they're still very handy to make pods predictable from long range.

Likewise a hack is considerably easier when all the pods are switched on so you know where to hide the one guy (might have to be shinobi instead of spec) for a 'stealth' hack (read: hack finished before everything dies). Since specs can help the squad without any LoS whatsoever, they're good for this.


Then on those rare occasions I fuck up my predictions and lose a good soldier. Like the time when my TSgt crit ranger was within vision range of flank shots from cover - 2 Red Alert Mutons (from a pod I forgot about) walked over and killed her outright. But that's what makes LW2 great: being reminded that if I fuck up, I pay consequences.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Perk to choose is Sniper. Sniper always wins vs Shooty shinobi.
Crappy 7 HP 13 mob 55 aim shinobi is still scout for sniper. Sniper can trigger OW ambush .
Shooty shinobi could shoot 3 times but usually they don't. You picked stealth perks and for early to mid game they are so useful that you don't need to shoot (sword is enough).
Late game they are fine and rapid fire + lone wolf is what I will choose. Conceal on shooty is nice but you wan't to shoot with that build

-Lone Wolf
-Shadow step
-Hard target (they do not hide - they hunker or shoot)
- Bladestorm (my pick all three are valid)
- Hunter instict
- Hit & run
- Rapid fire

This is fighter shinobi - it can move an shoot
Aim must be good but mobility is more important. Why ? This is flanker and you still have blade and pistol. Combine that with Snap Shoot sniper and you can do two man missions with a lot of enemy. Add OW specialist (for hacking) and you will clear moderate GOPs .
Not sure about Legendary but on commander you can do a lot of damage.
Early game - can't level up shooty to be useful because last three perks are shooty.
Mid game - better SMG + rest of perks - heaven.
Fighter shinobi - I always lose concealment early and I don't care about concealment on that build.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by jorgen_cab »

I basically use two types of Shinobi, the Officer and the Support. I value high movement and decent defence/dodge as important stats and Aim between 60-65.

Officer
Ghostwalker, Shadowstep, Covert, Shadowstrike, Hunters Instinkt, Hit & Run, Conceal

Almost all my squads are led by such a Shinobi while I use Assault or Technical officers as haven liaisons.

Support
Lone Wolf, Combatives, Hard Target, Shadowstrike, Hunters Instincts, Hit & Run, Rapid Fire

I keep one or two stealth squads with two Shinobis otherwise just one Shinobi officer to lead the squads. No matter the case I always find that having one soldier able to scout around and be very good at it is crucial for making favourable engagements during pretty much any mission I take part at. Covert Shinobis are also very useful to pick up loot during intense combat where you otherwise would have to ignore it for the safety of your soldiers.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Dong101 »

Only used Shinobi officers in my campaign. Used to take high mobility rookie as Shinobi. But now only make those low to mid mob rookies as Shinobi. Found that with SMG and only carrying battlescanner the Shinobi officer still can keep up, move ahead for scouting.

Also most of the time it is too risky to make full blue move with high mob shinobi as he may run into detection range of advent that out of sight from original position.

All high mob rookies with non negative def become assault.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by gimrah »

jorgen_cab wrote:I basically use two types of Shinobi, the Officer and the Support. I value high movement and decent defence/dodge as important stats and Aim between 60-65.

Officer
Ghostwalker, Shadowstep, Covert, Shadowstrike, Hunters Instinkt, Hit & Run, Conceal

Almost all my squads are led by such a Shinobi while I use Assault or Technical officers as haven liaisons.

Support
Lone Wolf, Combatives, Hard Target, Shadowstrike, Hunters Instincts, Hit & Run, Rapid Fire

I keep one or two stealth squads with two Shinobis otherwise just one Shinobi officer to lead the squads. No matter the case I always find that having one soldier able to scout around and be very good at it is crucial for making favourable engagements during pretty much any mission I take part at. Covert Shinobis are also very useful to pick up loot during intense combat where you otherwise would have to ignore it for the safety of your soldiers.
Clearly shinobis are useful but I always used to find blade build (i.e. mainly right side) was best.

So interesting you have two builds, neither of which take offensive blade perks. Your officer build is exactly what I went with for my shooty special missions shinobi in the end. He's done well.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Dwarfling »

I've found that it doesn't really matter the build, all Shinobis make good officers. Ghostwalker is tough to choose tho, when you have to constantly battle against 15-20 defense enemies in the late game. Covert tho, is an easier pick.
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Psieye »

I get the feeling certain perks are meant to be re-spec'd out of once you're past the earlygame. I'd still prefer the other perks for +10 aim one way or another as Fleche is very strong in the earlygame.
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