Shooty shinobi?

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jorgen_cab
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:11 am

Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by jorgen_cab »

I have never ever finished a single game since I always figure of new strategies I want to test and the time I have to actually play are too limited, super late Shinobi use is a bit out of scope for me. There might be a need to re-spec them at some point but Ghostwalker have saved me many times and is very useful for being able to pick up loot during harder missions.

I have also started to play with "Peak from Concealment" and that mod increase the range of enemy detection quite significantly even if it is easier in other respects, the increased range can really screw you over and Ghostwalk have been very useful.

I also think that sword builds can be very powerful and overall I don't think it matter all that much, it probably have more to do with your overall squad compositions and play style. The perks from the AWC usually favour the shooting Shinobi as well are my experience.

While I agree that using full blue move on very fast Shinobis can be dangerous I don't have to use all that range during stealth. For me it is a tool that is useful, when the SMG is the Shinobis primary weapon you want as much movement as possible. Light armour are often not the best suited for them either, I usually experiment a bit with different armour types.
Psieye
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Psieye »

Certainly there is merit to using ghostwalker for looting. You would probably want to combine it with Needle Grenades - which is a perk shunned at Legendary as it's extremely unlikely for anything to get oneshot by a frag. But that's only if you're trying to oneshot - it's highly likely that some annoying enemy (with a good loot drop table) stays alive with 1 HP after shooting.

Hmm there's an idea for my next attempt at Legendary (whenever that is).
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Dwarfling
Posts: 524
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:16 pm

Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Dwarfling »

Don't even bother. Here's the thing: loot will never be more important than getting your team out unwounded. Having that grenadier enabling kill shots for Rangers, Gunners and Sharpshooters by removing cover, or having superior action economy when disabling or deploying smoke will always be miles better than having a chance of, every once in a while, getting loot out of enemies you, accidentaly or not, kill with explosives. And having a Shinobi that can 100% take out the early game high HP enemies (sectoid, officer, stunlancer, gunner) is miles better than having a Shinobi that is more forgiving to sneak around with but has a higher chance of not killing a target and being left in precarious situations.
Jacke
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Jacke »

jorgen_cab wrote:I have also started to play with "Peak from Concealment" and that mod increase the range of enemy detection quite significantly even if it is easier in other respects, the increased range can really screw you over and Ghostwalk have been very useful.
With the latest LW2 I found that the PfC perk of being able to go through 2 sighted squares as long as the path was otherwise not sighted wasn't working. So I metamodded off the increased range.

Did PfC fix the dashing breakage?
jorgen_cab
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:11 am

Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by jorgen_cab »

Psieye wrote:Certainly there is merit to using ghostwalker for looting. You would probably want to combine it with Needle Grenades - which is a perk shunned at Legendary as it's extremely unlikely for anything to get oneshot by a frag. But that's only if you're trying to oneshot - it's highly likely that some annoying enemy (with a good loot drop table) stays alive with 1 HP after shooting.

Hmm there's an idea for my next attempt at Legendary (whenever that is).

I agree, grenades are mostly for removing cover and soften up the enemy so I can kill them with one shot, perhaps even just a graze.
Last edited by jorgen_cab on Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
jorgen_cab
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:11 am

Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by jorgen_cab »

Dwarfling wrote:Don't even bother. Here's the thing: loot will never be more important than getting your team out unwounded. Having that grenadier enabling kill shots for Rangers, Gunners and Sharpshooters by removing cover, or having superior action economy when disabling or deploying smoke will always be miles better than having a chance of, every once in a while, getting loot out of enemies you, accidentaly or not, kill with explosives. And having a Shinobi that can 100% take out the early game high HP enemies (sectoid, officer, stunlancer, gunner) is miles better than having a Shinobi that is more forgiving to sneak around with but has a higher chance of not killing a target and being left in precarious situations.
It works very well, extra loot means more tools to kill my enemies with thus better soldiers overall. I want my Shinobi to stay hidden for as long as possible so I can control every engagement over the course of a mission. When doing this I want to be able to use the Shinobi as much as possible for other things such as taking loot, scout and yell orders. Every soldiers purpose is not to kill stuff, you only need about half your squad to be true killers, the others are there to support them.

I go to very high extremes not to kill by explosives, perhaps why I like suppression skills so much.

I only reveal my Shinobi Officer when I'm overwhelmed... which should not be too often if I have done my scouting properly.

I find that rushing the Shinobi forward without proper scouting is very dangerous unless you want to destroy everything with rockets and grenades, which I don't. My Technicals don't even use their rockets every missions, they are mainly there for security rather than their destructive capacity, that is why I give them suppression and other rifle killing skills so they can earn their keep without alerting every pod on the map to my position from turn one. Technicals are also great for flaming the first pod on reveal in an ambush.
Psieye
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by Psieye »

Dwarfling wrote:Don't even bother. Here's the thing: loot will never be more important than getting your team out unwounded. Having that grenadier enabling kill shots for Rangers, Gunners and Sharpshooters by removing cover, or having superior action economy when disabling or deploying smoke will always be miles better than having a chance of, every once in a while, getting loot out of enemies you, accidentaly or not, kill with explosives. And having a Shinobi that can 100% take out the early game high HP enemies (sectoid, officer, stunlancer, gunner) is miles better than having a Shinobi that is more forgiving to sneak around with but has a higher chance of not killing a target and being left in precarious situations.
I should have mentioned Commander's Choice. Under orthodox class roulette and orthodox alpha striking, I agree.

But you know how much I manipulate the AI by hiding. I'm thinking of bizarre 5-man squads like 1 sniper, 1 shinobi, 3 grenadier. The end goal is the same: get the team out unwounded. The paradigm shift is in how the frag gets used: never for removing cover because a sniper doesn't need cover destruction to get flank shots. I've fucked up if I ever have to depend on the sniper hitting something in cover in the earlygame. Likewise, the grenadiers don't need cover destruction as they shouldn't even be seen until the turn they're getting a close-range flank shot. So the purpose of the frag becomes "kill 2 HP valuable-loot enemies after shots happen to hit them". Alternatively, "triple frag the whole pod (or two!) because they start clustering again after the initial scamper".
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Any way you use them they are best at scouting. Any other class is just bomb carrier (70+ aim excluded).
My OW ambush are mot often waste of ammo but it is better than nothing and it saves bomb.
Early game rifle is just +1 graze at most and -3 mobility. That's why my SMG squad - needs one scout and plenty of bombs.

Yellow alert - Shinobi can spot the pod
Ambush - you need Shinobi if you want more than one
Assault attack and activating another pod - avoid that with - Shinobi scouting

Blade attack - who cares - RND will screw you even with +10 AIM and +1 (?) Dmg . Lone Wolf is tricky.
Loot (early game) - it is always out of range or on top of you

Carpet bombing in the end gives better results - less wounds/more loot in future. I don't need grenadier if my soldier have SMG an bombs.
So I even have fire twice (ranger) as grenadier because miss twice is just waste of ammo. Every enemy on map must be covered with one bomb until my soldiers have more perks or better equipment. SMG is better finisher than rifle because you can finish something (+3 mobility).
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jorgen_cab
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Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:11 am

Re: Shooty shinobi?

Post by jorgen_cab »

Yes I agree... very early game most overwatch shots are unreliable and I give anything below around 70+ starting aim an SMG, mobility is way more important.

As soldiers level up and you get access to Hairtriggers, Tracer Rounds and eventually Laser Rifles Overwatch start to really become powerful on Rangers, Gunners and high aim Specialists.

I still find the SMG the most used weapon in my campaign for many different reasons on most soldiers. I usually equip Grenadiers, Specialist and Technicals who uses SMG with a stock and have them steady aim instead of overwatch, works much better in many ways. I just seem to have allot of stocks lying about and they are not worth much selling anyway. Shinobis don't get equipped with stocks on their SMG though... seem a bit useless for them.
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