Magnetic Weapons - why?

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Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Phaseless »

Hi all, was just wondering.
I am in mid june and have been using laser rifles for some time now.
Since Money has been collecting "itself" (poor robbed advent) bit by bit, I started to think about upgrading weapon Tier.
Now I had the choice between magnetic weapons or elerium which will lead to coil weapons according to wiki.

My question is, are magnetic weapons a practical choice at all? Why should I Research them if some 15 or so days later I can have the next best Tier without spending loads of cash on an inferior Tier? Are magnetic weapons only viable for builds where you skip laser?

Please tell me what I am missing here. Is my first LW2 campaign so there are many Things I can't consider.
Noober
Posts: 129
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Noober »

Coil research time is twice more then mag (Legend) and even more as it require elerium. And the worst part is that coil weapon is REALLY expensive to build. Even if you rush for it you will not be abble to quickly equip all your shotty classes with that shiny toys.

By mid june on Legend you should be already facing MK2 advent in all missions who are not that easy to kill with laser.
F.E. Mk2 officer has 12-13 HP alone. Laser do 4-5 (rilfe) and 5-8 (others). So it takes up to 3 non grazed shot to kill just this one.
And this one is not the worst - there are tons of snakes and the regular viper has 12-13 HP AND a lot of dodge on top of that.

So for me - perhaps there is a reason to skip laser (I never do) but not mag.
From 1.4 experience mag sniper/shogun stays quite relevant to september and could even be usefull (and will be sometimes used) up to october because of high prices of coil.
Phaseless
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Phaseless »

Noober wrote:Coil research time is twice more then mag (Legend) and even more as it require elerium. And the worst part is that coil weapon is REALLY expensive to build. Even if you rush for it you will not be abble to quickly equip all your shotty classes with that shiny toys.

By mid june on Legend you should be already facing MK2 advent in all missions who are not that easy to kill with laser.
F.E. Mk2 officer has 12-13 HP alone. Laser do 4-5 (rilfe) and 5-8 (others). So it takes up to 3 non grazed shot to kill just this one.
And this one is not the worst - there are tons of snakes and the regular viper has 12-13 HP AND a lot of dodge on top of that.

So for me - perhaps there is a reason to skip laser (I never do) but not mag.
From 1.4 experience mag sniper/shogun stays quite relevant to september and could even be usefull (and will be sometimes used) up to october because of high prices of coil.
So basically your economy will not be strong enough to Support production of coil weapons that early? I understand...
Damn. You're right, am doing my first HQ assault Mission at that Moment and there I met my first MK2 officer. Sniper critted him for 11, so he went down rather fast. But still, once those start to Show up regularly I Need more firepower.
Noober
Posts: 129
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Noober »

By mid June you should have a basic mag for all your OW rangers/specs and beign working at advanced one.

To reach that you should bye 1 sceintist immideatly after BM is available (like 6-8 March), then start research Basic Research right after resistance communication and then - bye another one after first drop if unlucky with mission reward as I usually am.

By mid May you should have a Lab with at least 3 slots full of scientists and aiming to have the 4th in June.
Forget about armor - go straight to laser, then officer - mag rush. Then - armor, EXO and then go for coil.
There are just couple of autopsies (lancer, drone) and some datapad to expand which are worth doing but no more diviation.
That way it's possible to get basic Coil by mid August (hello 30HP Archon and 28HP MK3 Officer!) and advanced one - by the end of August - just in time.

If you have like 7 scientist after EXO - it's better to delay coil a bit for PSI, if not - go straight for coil.
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by gimrah »

As Noober says you do need to via mag. You need it for coil anyway. But you don't have to equip everyone with mag: just the people who use their primary all the time, so shooty/OW rangers, OW specs, shooty gunners, sharps. Your assaults might be able to last with old tech but you won't regret building a shard gun or two.

Alternatively you can skip lasers and rush mag. I did that on my current campaign on Commander and it's going well.
Noober
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:47 am

Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Noober »

I would not suggest to skip lasers because:
1. it's cheap to research and to build (just render the elerium core or two if not have enough elerium)
2. it's a power spike for sniper/assault and rangers/OW spec. CPL assault with CnP with laser is OHK most if not all ayys.
3. it allows some of your rebels to have laser weapon on mini-retals/randevouz.

Though randevouz is not that difficult intel raid is one of the most annoying one and you will have quite a lot of them during the course of the game. Once your regions starts to hit 3 str - be prepared to fight two intel raids for a very short period of time as it seems like if the miniretal basket is full another one starts to fills up immediately even if the first one hadn't relulted into the actual mission yet due to too low str in all regions in the first moths of the game.
On my last one I somehow had only 3 (!!!) rebels to defend the relay against pod of 3 vipers and MK2 gunner (bug or the game just hate me so much?) out of total 12 in haven (no faceless!) with my team had spawned 4 dashes away, so laser on those 3 rebels would not be that bad. But in my case - no one had it...
Needles to say I had to sacrifice 2 out of 3 rebels to save the relay as it was down to 3 HP just after one (!!!) turn of shoting from only 3 of 4 ayys. But even then I would probably loose if not 2 grenaiers with 4 fire grenades.
Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Phaseless »

gimrah wrote:As Noober says you do need to via mag. You need it for coil anyway. But you don't have to equip everyone with mag: just the people who use their primary all the time, so shooty/OW rangers, OW specs, shooty gunners, sharps. Your assaults might be able to last with old tech but you won't regret building a shard gun or two.

Alternatively you can skip lasers and rush mag. I did that on my current campaign on Commander and it's going well.
According to the Chart on the wiki, I don't Need mag for coil. I'll still Research elerium and see if I can Research coil right away after that.
Guys, if it doesn't work out, then I have learned something.
If it does work out, we all have learned something. Phaseless rushes for coil and that's that. Godspeed.
Icarus
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:26 pm

Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Icarus »

Phaseless wrote:According to the Chart on the wiki, I don't Need mag for coil. I'll still Research elerium and see if I can Research coil right away after that.
Guys, if it doesn't work out, then I have learned something.
If it does work out, we all have learned something. Phaseless rushes for coil and that's that. Godspeed.
Keep us tuned, please.
By the way, in earlier versions it was that if you researched a weapon tech, but skipped over an earlier one, that your rebels didn't get weapons of that earlier type. Was that changed?
Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Phaseless »

If that is true, I can still Research magnetic weapons afterwards, in case I don't Need them for coil Research anyway.
Have almost maxed out my lab so I think it will take 20 or so days. 11 days for elerium if Memory serves right. Gotta survive until then.
Noober
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:47 am

Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Noober »

In 1.4 coil requires both - adv. mag. and elerium. No laser though. That's why some players skip laser and rush mag to coil.
There were no comments in the latest patchs update about changing amy resarch paths so you will still have to research mag to reach coil.
Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Phaseless »

Noober wrote:In 1.4 coil requires both - adv. mag. and elerium. No laser though. That's why some players skip laser and rush mag to coil.
There were no comments in the latest patchs update about changing amy resarch paths so you will still have to research mag to reach coil.
Damn. If that's true, I guess I'll just build the most important mags and then rush coil after mag.
Noober
Posts: 129
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Noober »

Aaaand suddenly the most important ones will be all of them except mag SMG...
Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Phaseless »

Noober wrote:Aaaand suddenly the most important ones will be all of them except mag SMG...
Nonono you're wrong! :D
I only Need cannons, and snipers, and Close range... and that's it! And maybe 2 pistols for my AWC pistoleers... no big deal, see?
Jacke
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Jacke »

A lot of good LW2 info articles and links are posted by Pavonis in the Long War 201 subforum here.

Including this one on the latest version of reddit user exodusinfinite's XCOM 2 LW2 tech tree here.

http://www.pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB ... 20&t=25888

Pointing at this reddit post from 2017 May 16 here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Xcom/comments/ ... _tree_v13/
Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Phaseless »

Jacke wrote:A lot of good LW2 info articles and links are posted by Pavonis in the Long War 201 subforum here.

Including this one on the latest version of reddit user exodusinfinite's XCOM 2 LW2 tech tree here.

http://www.pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB ... 20&t=25888

Pointing at this reddit post from 2017 May 16 here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Xcom/comments/ ... _tree_v13/
Thanks, that's the Chart I meant
I conveniently overlooked that Little arrow pointing down to coilguns from advanced mag weapons
DOH
TrainInVain
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by TrainInVain »

Magnetic weapons also unlocks the advanced grenade launcher.
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by gimrah »

TrainInVain wrote:Magnetic weapons also unlocks the advanced grenade launcher.
Now that AGL gives only range and not radius, it's of marginal benefit and I wouldn't plan strategy around it (although still nice for fire grenadiers). More to the point probably mag unlocks T2 gauntlet, which is a nice upgrade, albeit an expensive one.
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by gimrah »

[/quote] By the way, in earlier versions it was that if you researched a weapon tech, but skipped over an earlier one, that your rebels didn't get weapons of that earlier type. Was that changed?[/quote]

Rebels get access to the tech one tier below your highest tech, provided you have actually researched that tech.

If you did research lasers, some rebels will get lasers once you research mag. But (in 1.5) if you skip lasers you rebels are stuck on ballistics until you get coil, at which point some of them will get mag weapons. That is one disadvantage of laser skip / mag rush.

Seriously though I do suggest giving it a go. You have a tricky April but your main shooters will have mag rifles by mid May, which gives you a huge advantage over the aliens at that point, which can really help snowball. You can also stay on mag for a good while, allowing you to open up side techs if you wish, or at least a fairly early PG. Just don't half-arse it: you need all resources going into scientists and engies at the start and catch up on ant farm later. But going heavy on sci and engies early is also helpful in the long term so it's not much of a sacrifice.
Noober
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:47 am

Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Noober »

Basic Mag also unlock MK2 gauntlet - which is very powerfull in terms of cover destruction as it have 25 inv. damage. MK1 have only 20.
It also has some nice other boost (panic chance, fire dmg).

Laser on the other hand also get +5 aim which is nice to have on low level troops.
I am very scary of april vipers/lancers which are deadly and have too much HP for ballistic to skip lasers.
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by gimrah »

[/quote]
I am very scary of april vipers/lancers which are deadly and have too much HP for ballistic to skip lasers.[/quote]

I don't find them too problematic with ballistics. Flashbangs are a must to deal with vipers it's true - you don't want them using abilities. Similarly with lancers, although they mostly don't actually hit that hard and you have to get a bit unlucky to get knocked unconscious.

I also used a lot of shotguns on secondary users like specialists and grenadiers in that phase of the game and just got stuck in. I think a lot of people put SMGs on anyone who isn't primarily a shooty class. This is a mistake in my view, especially early on. Ballistic SMGs do essentially nothing, even against basic troopers. But any soldier can kill something with a shotgun if you can get in close. And rangers have their sawn-off as well. And if you get stuck in a ranged fight you can always move up and hunker for a turn.
Noober
Posts: 129
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by Noober »

Hmmm good point!
I did the same at some point back in 1.1-1.2 and it worked but they were so slow with shotguns especially grendiers.
And 1.3+ forced me to move a lot so I didn't consider to try it in 1.5.
Also shotgun has a range penalty - how does it interact with Sentinel OW on specialist?
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Magnetic Weapons - why?

Post by gimrah »

Noober wrote:Hmmm good point!
I did the same at some point back in 1.1-1.2 and it worked but they were so slow with shotguns especially grendiers.
And 1.3+ forced me to move a lot so I didn't consider to try it in 1.5.
Also shotgun has a range penalty - how does it interact with Sentinel OW on specialist?
I wouldn't put shotguns on OW shooters. (Shotgun with OW is horrible, although there is a mod to give you essentially free fire control so they don't take 1% shots.) I mean hacker specialists if you use them. Basically if you'd be considering an SMG, pause and ask yourself why not a shotgun. It can even work on a technical if they have high movement and/or you leave slots empty (if like me flame ambush rarely works out for you anyway). You can also consider a rifle instead if they have high aim. A rifle is only 1 more damage than an SMG but doesn't have those painful aim penalties.

It does depend on stats and mission type of course. The ones where you really have to move are the ones with large maps, a fixed evac and a separate objective to hit, i.e. jailbreaks and rescues from cells/vehicles. For those, you do want a hypermobile squad. But for the rest, including extracts, relays and hacks, you generally don't have to move nearly as far. And then you can afford to carry more serious weapons. And in combat I'd rather have less movement to flank but actually be able to kill when I do.
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