Building Tall?

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Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Building Tall?

Post by Phaseless »

Hi guys, I watched xwynns play and noticed he remains in a single region for a long time before contacting others. I wonder, why? What is the drawback to contacting until you reach the comm limit, except loss of intel? You get to build up other regions faster and get additional funds.

But xwynns being xwynns, I am sure I am not noticing something here.
Steelflame
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Steelflame »

A part of it is it makes it hard to get those early missions that are so crucial to get going. If you end up missing an early scientist or Engi it can put you massively behind.

I personally have my own strategy of completely ignoring the supplies haven operation until my first Liberation, using the higher intel to get more missions and sell more loot. I'll even completely ignore recruiting in my first region until I have 8 guys on intel in the mad gambit of getting ahead of the intel curve so that I don't miss any missions.

This strat tends to get me ahead more often than not in the early game, so I consider it very worth.

The more aggressive your mission plan is to get your Vigilance up high, the earlier in the game you'll run into things like Troop Movements and Supply Raids. These missions can be worth anywhere from 50-200 supplies early game, and also don't have timers or reinforcements, making them safer than normal missions tend to be. Hell, there are times I'll get really lucky and spot my first UFO by the end of the first month because I'll catch the mission that spawns it.
Phaseless
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Phaseless »

So you put your personnel on Intel until you got at least 8, freed personnel from Mission then goes into recruit and supplies you get solely from missions?
Steelflame
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Steelflame »

Phaseless wrote:So you put your personnel on Intel until you got at least 8, freed personnel from Mission then goes into recruit and supplies you get solely from missions?
Pretty close. I'll probably grab a second region once I've got 2-3 missions currently actively timing down the clock because of the regional active mission cap, and put said second region and third regions on recruiting heavy while mostly focusing my starting region until I at least have a few lib chain missions down.

I can push it to the point I am doing 8 man troop columns or supply raids within the first to second month, which sets you MASSIVELY ahead of the corpse curve, and with how terrible early supplies from the supply job is (A single low infiltration troop column can produce more supplies than an entire month of having multiple haven personnel on the supply job), I'll frequently not have a single haven unit on the supply job until the 3rd month as I finish up my first Liberation and shift all the units to supply and give them one of my Engineers that are starting to run out of stuff to do on the ship.

The high pressure you put out also means that you'll drag all of the aliens UFO spawns to your region, and let you control them and prevent them from giving Advent strength buildup in other regions, letting you sweep through several other areas in one fell swoop come midgame letting you be a global powerhouse.
Last edited by Steelflame on Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Phaseless
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Phaseless »

So if I understand that correctly, the reason why you don't spread out earlier and contact other regions is because that will set you behind the 4 Intel you get from the avenger scanning? And since that will set you behind in the Liberation schedule, you actually lose more resources by getting a Region liberated later than you would lose by not spreading out earlier?
Steelflame
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Steelflame »

Phaseless wrote:So if I understand that correctly, the reason why you don't spread out earlier and contact other regions is because that will set you behind the 4 Intel you get from the avenger scanning? And since that will set you behind in the Liberation schedule, you actually lose more resources by getting a Region liberated later than you would lose by not spreading out earlier?
Yep. It is insanely hard to do the liberation missions when you catch them with only 5 hours on the clock, and you'll frequently have to skip them. Intel's reduced returns at higher staffing is why I don't bother setting everyone to intel always at the early game, but any region I am actively converting is on near pure intel.

Also, when you actively have parts of the liberation chain going, it becomes extremely easy to see UFO maneuver missions because they will, just like the Liberation chain's starting mission, only show up with an intel reward for a hack, and not an intel package.


Also, another point to this is Avatar Progress. The way the aliens decide how much they will invest in avatar facilities early is heavily based on global vigilance, which is total vigilance/total force level or something along those lines. The major vigilance spikes you will do can push you upwards of 35+ vigilance just in your starting region, which pretty much just flat out tells the aliens to panic and completely ignore the avatar project and throw everything they possibly can at you. This further gives you more resources, giving you more capability to field troops, letting you get global vigilance higher, letting you get more resources, letting you field more troops, letting you get global vigilance higher, rinse, lather, repeat. I've managed to push to Plasma by late August/early september in my last campaign. I'll also have absolutely no problems with alloys or elerium because of all the mission options I have to gather resources.
Phaseless
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Phaseless »

Wait so you actually delay the Avatar Project by raising vigilance by being a pain in the d*ck?
Steelflame
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Steelflame »

Phaseless wrote:Wait so you actually delay the Avatar Project by raising vigilance by being a pain in the d*ck?
Yep.
Vigilance is represented by the Global Vigilance (GV) level, consisting of the sum of all Regional Vigilance (RV) levels. This is then converted to Net Global Vigilance by subtracting the Global Alert (GA) level. That is: NetGV = GV - GA. Conceptually, the net global vigilance is a measure of whether the aliens have over-extended by focusing too much on the resistance: high values mean ADVENT is dealing with more problems than they have troops, while low values means ADVENT has plenty of troops to deal with the rebel threat.
Net Global Vigilance is indicated on the Resistance Management tab as 'Global Resistance Threat'. This provides a general range of the net global vigilance, and thus the raw global vigilance (by simple math). These labels correspond to the NetGV level, with each step representing +10 additional Net Global Vigilance:
Low (NetGV value below -10)
Guarded (NetGV between -10 and 0)
Elevated (0 to 10)
At Elevated and above, i.e. when Net Global Vigilance is above 0, the AVATAR project progresses more slowly. Each point of Net Global Vigilance increases the time to generate a new AVATAR point by 10 hours.
High (10 to 20)
Severe (20 to 30)
At Severe and above, the aliens gain access to a "Super Reinforcements" activity which creates twice as many Alert points.
TODO: Does this replace the normal reinforcement activity or does it allow two reinforcements at once?
Extreme (above 30)
The initial value of the GV is determined randomly at start and it can vary between 16-39 points, and the starting values for each regional RV can vary between 1-4.
This is one of the major rewards of doing the attract Advent attention missions is the larger boost of Vigilance, which slows down the avatar project, and will prompt Advent to attempt to move units to a region, or to reinforce it by UFO if they can't directly, say because the region is either blocked off (Because you surrounded it by other liberated regions, or you constantly cut off their supply raids).
Last edited by Steelflame on Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Phaseless
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Phaseless »

Oh shit in my campaign I think GV is 37. I must have pissed them off good.
Icarus
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Icarus »

This might be of interest to the topic:
http://pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB3/vi ... 20&t=26029
Exquisitor
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Exquisitor »

I play on Veteran and Commander. I usually start by scanning one region until I get at least the engineer and scientist. By then I have the resistance comms and break out into three regions. I place all resistance workers on intel in each of these regions until I have the liberation missions started. After that, it depends on how well I'm doing. Sometimes the liberation missions pop up with a very short timer, so I just ignore them and keep going. Do as many of the engineer, scientist, free the resistance worker missions as you can early on.
Dwarfling
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Dwarfling »

Just be advised that if you go super aggressive vigilance-wise early in the game, you might attract an excesive number of legions to your starting regions and you might end up without low strenght regions to run your Ex.Light missions.
Phaseless
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Phaseless »

Personally, I have Intel running in 2 of my 4 regions and I plan to liberate them. I try to Keep a low Profile on the others so I can run easy missions there in the future. But I'm afraid even my supply guys there are pushing up vigilance quite a bit.
But I guess you can use a "get advent's Attention" Mission to draw vigilance there and then do easy missions in the surrounding regions.
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by gimrah »

Not convinced it is optimal without some super precise min/maxy technique to accelerate liberation that involves knowing all the hidden mechanics inside out. I don't know whether xwynns does. It wouldn't particularly be his style.

Unless you have that, researching resistance comms asap and contacting 2 more regions asap has got to be the strongest strategy. More regions = more missions. More missions = more resources + more xp = more win.

When to go beyond 3 regions is perhaps less obvious and may depend on your overall strategic position at the time.
Psieye
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Psieye »

Phaseless wrote:I'm afraid even my supply guys there are pushing up vigilance quite a bit.
The Supply Job does not create vigilance - it slows down the decay of vigilance but it doesn't create it.

Fast-expand to 3 is my default opener too - default because sometimes a well-timed Intel Boost on a key mission is more important than contacting region 3 ASAP. I personally don't think I'll ever skip laser as I want an easy time fast-liberating a region so I know which way the Blacksite is. Then I can expand more aggressively.

The Intel from Avenger scan is good except on a few days when all the existing missions have been detected and you're infiltrating them. Then it's useless to be doing Intel so for those few days I'll switch to Recruit and go contact another region (or find the black market if this is the start). Things get very hectic soon but the opener is all about the Avenger scan when it's relevant.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
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Jacke
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Jacke »

Phaseless wrote:Hi guys, I watched xwynns play and noticed he remains in a single region for a long time before contacting others. I wonder, why?
That must have been Xavier's first LW2 campaign. He was testing some variant play in both his first and second LW2 campaigns. For the first one, he pushed his first region to liberation before expanding. It was definitely a sub-par strategy to follow. It's much better to expand to 2 and 3 regions contacted to spread out your missions and to get enough of them, as well as allowing you to rest a region if ADVENT strength goes up too fast for you to handle well.

You should check out his 2nd campaign. As well, he's just started a 3rd campaign with LW2 v1.5 this week.
Phaseless
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Phaseless »

Sorry for necroing my own thread but I thought this was preferable to a new Topic

So I am late September or so in my campaign and I contacted about 11 regions, 3 of them liberated. Just had my first Invasion which was the hardest Mission ever. I savescummed which is something I don't do anymore usually, because I felt like I could not have been prepared for this.

Now I wonder, is it bad having too many liberated regions at once due to danger of invasions? I know a neighboring Region Needs 8 STR for that to happen and that Chance is 1% +1% per faceless each day.
Dwarfling
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Dwarfling »

I've done away with liberating more than 1 region. What I do is I focus down a region, the region gets so much vigilance that ADVENT starts moving legions and sending UFOs. Hopefully I can stop some of those for profit, but it's alright if you can't, since you can also do the Troop Columns. You'll also detect DE missions along the way so you'll have plenty missions to keep your squads occupied. Then as the region reaches strenght 6 I abandon the region by switching all the rebels to Supply and move on to other lower strenght region I kept on Recruit. You'll get Supply retals but those are easy, the full retals might be more challenging.
Phaseless
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Phaseless »

Dwarfling wrote:I've done away with liberating more than 1 region. What I do is I focus down a region, the region gets so much vigilance that ADVENT starts moving legions and sending UFOs. Hopefully I can stop some of those for profit, but it's alright if you can't, since you can also do the Troop Columns. You'll also detect DE missions along the way so you'll have plenty missions to keep your squads occupied. Then as the region reaches strenght 6 I abandon the region by switching all the rebels to Supply and move on to other lower strenght region I kept on Recruit. You'll get Supply retals but those are easy, the full retals might be more challenging.
Not to criticize your way of playing but I miss your reason for not liberating more than one Region.
I behave like you in my not liberated regions, I do Intel and missions until STR gets high and then I Switch to supply and Guerilla low STR regions. Since I got a load of non liberated regions where I can farm for Intel and missions, I am fine with more liberated regions on that front. I just wonder if having too many of those might have a drawback I don't see yet.
Dwarfling
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Dwarfling »

A region that's not liberated but high on vigilance will hold a lot of legions that would otherwise end up in the surrounding regions. Makes it easier to keep more regions at low strenght. You're missing the %bonuses but you're still gathering supplies and with easier missions it's easier to get more intel to expand faster and reach the GP regions or get scientist+package missions for Leads.
Phaseless
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Phaseless »

Dwarfling wrote:A region that's not liberated but high on vigilance will hold a lot of legions that would otherwise end up in the surrounding regions. Makes it easier to keep more regions at low strenght. You're missing the %bonuses but you're still gathering supplies and with easier missions it's easier to get more intel to expand faster and reach the GP regions or get scientist+package missions for Leads.
Thanks, now I get it.
Basically I provide less advent-strength-dump-regions, hence Advent is stronger in regions where I'd prefer easier missions.
Will this also lead to heavier/more retals? Or are retals exclusively dependent on my rebel activity?
Dwarfling
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Dwarfling »

You'll get retals for sure. But if you're ready for them it's easy experience (and loot on intel, recruit and terror retal), specially the Supply retals. Those and Haven Defense are easy to complete with a flawless if you have good overwatch soldiers around. Terror retals can be an issue with high strenght, but mostly for the rebels.

I have the impression that the launch site of full retals depends on vigilance, because ADVENT has launched full retals against me on Strenght 3-4 regions where I was active doing missions when I had an abandoned Strenght 7 region somewhere full of rebels working Supply.

Keep a log on the dates when they last happened and you won't get caught without soldiers available. Or just accept that you'll have to cancel a mission here and there to deal with them.
faket15
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by faket15 »

Dwarfling wrote:I have the impression that the launch site of full retals depends on vigilance, because ADVENT has launched full retals against me on Strenght 3-4 regions where I was active doing missions when I had an abandoned Strenght 7 region somewhere full of rebels working Supply.
The way the game decides uses two layers of RNG. First every region that isn't on retaliation cooldown and has at least the minimum Strength and Vigilance rolls to see if a retaliation can actually happen there. A success on this roll means that the region is added to the list. After the list is complete the game rolls to see which region on the list receives the retaliation. This second roll gives exactly the same chance for every region without any bias. The first roll has a base chance of 2% + 3% per point of Strength or Vigilance + 3% per non-hiding Rebel. For mini-retaliations you have a similar roll but base chance is 20% and only rebels on the job that triggers the mission count, but they have more effect (5% per rebel instead of 3%). A region that has a Golden Path mission site or is adjacent to one always passes the first roll.
Psieye
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Re: Building Tall?

Post by Psieye »

Yeah, I have to agree with Dwarfling's logic. My current campaign had a fast double-liberation and it is hell. I mean sure, I can do Str 8 missions with fucked up 8-man squads but that's only in the timing window of June~August, i.e. "Mags and MSgts in 8-mans". Even so I'm having to properly infiltrate (with 8-man) to keep RNF sizes small (because they come so fast at Str 8). Except for Troop Columns and S&G - but those don't give intel. Unless I'm meant to get my intel from a Collector officer and ploughing through Heavy+ missions all the time? That's not fun.

Now, the scary thing about expanding without liberating a lot is that you can't stop Strategic DEs reliably. Those high Str regions you've stopped doing intel work for will spawn Strategic DEs (one per world at a time). You can keep a couple rebels on intel to find more Troop Columns (they're intentionally easy to find) but stopping DEs is harder. The other concern is making sure those high Str regions STAY at high Vigilance to lock out the GOps you want spawning in your hunting grounds. It's what a large haven and the string of Troop Column + S&G are for.

At the very least, the 2nd liberation should be in the opposite direction to Blacksite (and Psi Gate if you happen to know where that is). Don't make my mistake of liberating the region that's on the path to Blacksite - now I have a region that's permanently wanting so much Str no matter what its Vigiliance is.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
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3rd
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