Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

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josna238
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Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by josna238 »

What is the point of AMF having Double Tap. -10% aim usually doesn't matter in a sniper that is over 100% very often.

Average damage: I know that it has cooldown but doing the maths we do +4 with AMF every turn and +BaseDmg/2 every turn (on average). Wich sniper does less than 8 base damage on late game (when we reach the perk)?

Other actions: we will need to reload,walk,holotargetr... so sometimes the cooldown won't matter because we are doing other tasks.

Low health aliens: We can chose to don't use DT with a low health enemy, so the cooldown matters even less. With dmg we are wasting damage.+

Situational: We chose when to use. Most of the times a shot with double damage RIGHT NOW that I need to finish that Alpha alien and cooldown for the next turn is better than a +4dmg in both turns.

Even to finish things lot of times two shots with -10% aim are more likely to kill than one shot with +4dmg.

Does anybody use AMF? And why?
Tuhalu
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Tuhalu »

Double Tap costs double the ammo, forcing you to reload more often (at best you can double tap 3 rounds in a row with a Superior Expanded Magazine before you must reload). With AMF you can shoot 6 rounds in a row without reloading.

If you take 2 shots on the same target, then you'll have to go through their armor twice, which means you are comparing +4 damage on shot, vs +0 damage on the first shot and -4 or -5 damage on the second shot (with damage control I've seen up to 7 armor!). Coil Sniper does 7-14 base damage, so against 5 armor you'd do 2-9 damage (with a chance to crit for +5).

Furthermore, AMF works with Precision Shot, whereas Double Tap does not (since they are both activated abilities). A reliably huge crit every now and then is kind of nice. Not necessarily better than two smaller shots that may or may not crit, but nice.
josna238
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by josna238 »

Tuhalu wrote:Double Tap costs double the ammo, forcing you to reload more often (at best you can double tap 3 rounds in a row with a Superior Expanded Magazine before you must reload). With AMF you can shoot 6 rounds in a row without reloading.

If you take 2 shots on the same target, then you'll have to go through their armor twice, which means you are comparing +4 damage on shot, vs +0 damage on the first shot and -4 or -5 damage on the second shot (with damage control I've seen up to 7 armor!). Coil Sniper does 7-14 base damage, so against 5 armor you'd do 2-9 damage (with a chance to crit for +5).

Furthermore, AMF works with Precision Shot, whereas Double Tap does not (since they are both activated abilities). A reliably huge crit every now and then is kind of nice. Not necessarily better than two smaller shots that may or may not crit, but nice.
Interesting points. Especially the last ones (armor and PrecissionShot. I haven't thought about it because I tend to do pure DFAs and HOLOs. I dissagree with the ammo point thought as it isn't a major problem in my DFA build because my turns are planed to work as follow:

0.- Stock
1.- DoubleTap + Stock
2.- Shot + Stock/Reload
3.- Double Tap + Stock/Reload
4.- Shot + Stock/Reload

Stock/reload shifts depend on magazine level. Is what I am doing before Double Tap (Kill+Stock/Reload all the time), but sometimes a graze cut the progression so with Double Tap I expekt to don't have that problem.
DerAva
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by DerAva »

josna238 wrote: 1.- DoubleTap + Stock
That only works if you score your kill with the first shot from Double Tap (in which case you didn't need Double Tap anyway). If the 2nd shot from Double Tap is the killing blow then DfA doesn't trigger so you can't steady up.
hamds28
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by hamds28 »

They're for different things. Double Tap gives your sniper a button to push for massive damage. AMF is for increasing your kill reliability and expanding the range of optimal targets.

I take Double Tap snipers on combat missions to fill the role of a gunner. Deal huge damage to that Andromedon that needs to die. Otherwise kill stuff.

AMF snipers are about keeping the shots coming and the enemies dying. The Coil tech sniper rifle has a damage range of 6-14 (7-15 with centre mass). That's not enough to reliably kill stuff that pops up when it's coiltech time. An AMF sniper will be doing 11-19. A lot of aliens will die to one shot, which gives you DFA actions, which leads to more stuff dying.
LordYanaek
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by LordYanaek »

I had 2 snipers in Waterworld : one was AMF and the other was Serial.
A good nest sniper can easily get 100% hit 100% crit against enemies without dodge which means a lot of damage, usually the second shot from DT would only add a couple of points and most of the dmg would be wasted so i'd rather take +4 dmg on each shot.

The ammo cost of DT is a major issue for me in prolonged fights because my nest sniper must aim every turn to keep aim and most importantly crit at or close to 100%. Any time i must reload before the fight is over is dangerous because if i can't aim and don't crit the next turn, i might not kill my target thus preventing me from aiming again. Usually not aiming forces me to choose a lower health target that i know i can kill without a crit and this is not necessarily the target i want to remove from the map.

That's not to say DT is bad and i always take it on my Rapid Targeting holo-officers builds so i can holotarget when DT is on cooldown and provide a good power spike when it's available but my DfA nest snipers are perfectly tuned machines that kill exactly one target each turn and aim at the end of the turn and for that, i prefer AMF.
Elder_Basilisk
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Elder_Basilisk »

I think the boost to minimum damage is a key point in amf's favor. One shot, one kill is great but if your range goes down to 7, then there are a lot of enemies that will die to an average damage shot but live through all your low rolls. Add and in and you get a lot closer to a kill on minimum damage.

I'll add that, my experience with double tap has been very underwhelming. I took double tap on a DFA+phantom and conceal sniper thinking it would help him burn through relays more quickly when I took him on stealth missions. Didn't work out that way and when I use him on combat missions, double tap has been a disappointment as well.
Icarus
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Icarus »

I'd say the AWC has some influence here. If I Shredder/Holo/Locked On with my shots, I would probably want to take Double Tap. If I have Lethal, then AMF doesn't make that much of a difference anymore either.

On the other hand if I have Brind Em On, then that sniper would be a strong contender for a Precision Shot sniper, thus using AMF.
josna238
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by josna238 »

If DT doesn't work with DFA it becomes much weaker that I thought, then to match with DFA is better AMF and to match with VitalPoint partner is better Double Tap.
Tuhalu
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Tuhalu »

josna238 wrote:If DT doesn't work with DFA it becomes much weaker that I thought, then to match with DFA is better AMF and to match with VitalPoint partner is better Double Tap.
I wouldn't disagree with that assessment. One of the changes we are seeing with the new perk trees (in 1.3) is perks being reorganized to match more closely the builds players are actually making. For instance, the Specialist getting pure medic, overwatch and hacking lines. To me, the sharpshooter falls into crit snipe, holotarget and snap shot lines.
Autoclave
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Autoclave »

How come nobody mentioned the total pod annihilation that AMF + Rapid Reaction does? That's basically 3 less enemies per pod. It can kill stuff by grazing alone. Yeah, cool under pressure would hit the jackpot, but AMF does the job well
Zyrrashijn
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Zyrrashijn »

AMF obviously grows stronger with the number of shots taken per round. But since RR is not part of the sharpshooter tree, this is really an edge case unless you are cheesing the AWC perks.
trihero
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by trihero »

Without regards to AWC perks, I'm a fan of AMF. I rely on DFA sharps to one shot something every turn without having to rely on a cooldown, and AMF goes a long way to making sure that happens. It's a big help to be able to one shot say advent elites or mutons and go into steady weapon and keep doing that over and over. Even leaving the enemy at 1 hp breaks your rhythm entirely. +4 damage from AMF is crazy good, and you might even need both that with some ammo types on legend to consistently one shot things.

If I need to hit something really hard with a cooldown, which is what you might pick Double Tap for, as it stands I already pick both Precision Shot and Deadeye in the current 1.4 tree. Precision shot is for flanked targets I've scouted with a shinobi to make sure the crit goes to 100% and does absurd damage so I can count that muton elite or elite officer out of the game. Deadeye is reserved for robots, although of course if none are around it's certainly usable as an extra Precision Shot. Deadeye interestingly also seems to increase your crit damage. I did 41 damage to an advent general once with Deadeye, felt good.
Dwarfling
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Dwarfling »

I took Double Tap on a Snap Shot Sharpshooter (that happened to get Deadshot). Worked pretty well since I wasn't relying doing DFA cycles. Of course it meant I couldn't move and use it that turn, but it's not like I was moving after I was in a good position. And since you can reload and snap shot, ammo usage wasn't that big of a deal. Helps a lot against the same big meaty targets you'd use a Crit Ranger on. For DFA users I'd go AMF, unless I was short on crit Rangers and cooldown Gunners.
virtualangel
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by virtualangel »

Interesting topic.

I use DT often on my DFA snipers, I just like the flexibility of shooting two separate targets or twice at the same meaty target. There have been many times that I could take out two targets vs one. Obviously Serial is better for clean up, I have a few of those too.

I will also mention that the first DT shot is its own action, but the second shot can be Precision Shot or Deadeye.

To me the tradeoff is +4 damage or flexibility. Some large pods or a walk in flank pod… I would prefer that extra kill after a grenade to reduce some hit points. It’s like a halfway point between Serial and AMF.

On Heavy Activity missions or Supply/Troop missions I tend to try and bring three snipers, if I can, two DT and one serial. This just cleans house.
stefan3iii
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by stefan3iii »

Being able to shoot two separate targets makes Double Tap vastly superior. The situation where you have two low HP or two wounded targets that need to be killed comes up all the time. Of course, SS hits so hard that "low HP" for him is a target with like 12 HP.

The fact that DT also usually does more damage to a single target than AMF anyway, barring contrived circumstances, makes it an even easier choice.
Icarus
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Icarus »

But the second shot doesn't count for the purpose of DfA, according to this thread, does it? That's quite a negative point for DT IMO.
Skyro
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Skyro »

Icarus wrote:But the second shot doesn't count for the purpose of DfA, according to this thread, does it? That's quite a negative point for DT IMO.
The second shot does, but the first shot doesn't so you have to be mindful of this when selecting the order of your targets. I feel DT is vastly superior for a DFA snipers simply because of the squads/missions you take DFA snipers on. For example my HQ/Raid squad has a holo sniper, rupture rangers, etc. so with DT you get double the benefit from holo and rupture effects (not to mention ammo). I like AMF on snapshot snipers since it is the only MSGT skill that affects normal shots, which is the only shot you can do after moving.
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

I think AMF vs DT is quite a balanced choice.

Yes, DT allows you to shoot 2 times but there are a few things that people tend to overlook:
- Second DT shoot loses the Steady Aim bonuses (-25 aim/crit), which makes the second shot weaker and a bit harder to make the kill needed for steady.
- DT has a cooldown so if you have to keep in mind that the boost from AMF works on all turns. So DT gives you arguably / generally the option to add a second weaker shot in one turn, at the cost of having a permanent damage penalty.
- AMF scales with DeadEye, CritDamage ...etc, something that you cannot combo with DT.

I usually have both types in my main squad. I use AMF to 1 shot things like mutton elite or superveavy MECs, something that a DT has difficulties with. An AMF sniper, with critbuild hits for 40 damage end game. That's 1 shot for a superheavy MEC - something that takes a squad effort otherwise. A DT needs more than 2 shots to take that - on average - unless you are lucky with the crits.

I think Serial is to situational. It's also getting nerfed. Unless it's cooldown is reduce (which is something like 7 turns now), I don't see myself picking that over AMF or DT.
Psieye
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Psieye »

Which is best depends a lot on what your first pick is. For a holo guy, DT is better as you just don't have the opportunity to sit and shoot much - there's usually something else to be doing. For snapshot snipers, Serial is powerful as you can walk halfway through it and continue your flank combo. Yes it's situational - that means you have to work to create the situation. AMF is prefered by DfA snipers because they need to get that kill every single turn.
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virtualangel
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by virtualangel »

@ WanWhiteWolf
"- AMF scales with DeadEye, CritDamage ...etc, something that you cannot combo with DT."

The first DT shot can't be comboed, but the second shot can. You have a full second action, you can reload, Deadeye, PS, run, hunker, etc.
DerAva
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by DerAva »

The second action from DT is limited to attacks or overwatch - no moves or reload allowed.

What I like about DT: it allows you to set up a Kubikiri shot by yourself - damage with the first hit, then kill with the 2nd.
Icarus
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by Icarus »

So for a DfA sniper, I consistently habe the problem that my steady bonus applied to the first shot, but I have to kill using the un-steadied second shot? That's a serious disadvantage. Although I don't know how important that steady bonus is in mid- and endgame.
RookieAutopsy
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Re: Sniper: AMF vs Double Tap

Post by RookieAutopsy »

Firstly, all my SS use DFA. I find the range bonus and extra Steady/Reload far better than any other choice. Even Mr Magoo the 55 aim rookie from Gatecrasher gets it (its then complemented by all the other +aim skills and they get shoved into a Haven for the rest of their lives). On the final tier I would give them DT as it increases their chance to actually kill something.

I use AMF on my reliable every turn snipers who are specced for max damage per turn. Not a crit build, just reliable one shot one kill every single round, the 2nd DT shot not necessarily giving you the kill you need (due to no Steady, then denying you Steady next turn too) coupled with its CD means I feel the build is weaker overall than an AMF one. This spec also has both Deadeye and Precision Shot to give extra damage as required.

I pair Serial with my Kubikiri/Crit builds as I find it has better synergy with it.
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