Is there a list of hack debuffs?

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gimrah
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Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by gimrah »

For all that everyone raves about how great hacking is, I find the odds are always terrible on anything beyond a basic drone. If I hack to capture it's as a desperate Hail Mary. Which can be great sometimes, but I'm not going to build my squad around it.

I find specialists the weakest class. OW spec takes ages to get going, all to get a workable 2-shot ability. Support specs don't contribute enough in fights.

So presumably people are using the debuffs? So grenadier bluescreen, redscreen rounds and assault arc pulser. But does anyone know how much each debuffs? Are there any other ways to reduce hack defence?
The13Inquisitor
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by The13Inquisitor »

I believe Red Fog decreases hack defense, but if anyone else can confirm, that'd be great.
Dwarfling
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by Dwarfling »

Those are it. Red Fog doesn't debuffs Hack Defense. I think Ufopaedia has the info you're looking for but I don't have access right now.

But yeah, you need a combination of Gremlin II, Skullmining, PCS, innate hack and levels (and maybe if you happen to hit Enemy Protocol) that you can reliably control anything that isn't a Drone or a Turret (they're very common tho). But at least you can Trojan shutdown for a 2-turn disable and some damage. That's why my Support Specialists (hackers) are made into Officers so that they can give their actions to someone else when their actions are subpar. They're honestly just a Soldier you deploy on the hack objective GOps to make it both easier and help you get more rewards. Thankfully those are rather common missions that you'll be doing the whole campaign.
faket15
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by faket15 »

The key to make good use of debuffs is understanding that each debuff applied has a larger effect than the last one because hack chance is based on the ratio between your hack and the target's hack defense, not the difference.

A TSGT with average starting hack, a T2 Gremlin, Skullmining and a +10 Hack PCS has 130 hack. This is enough to get on average 87.93% chance to control against a T2 Drone. Against a T2 MEC the same Specialist has only 53.46% and agaist a T1 MEC/Archer or a T2 Turret the chance is 64.91%.

Add Bluescreen Bombs and the Specialist now has 100% chance to control the T2 Drone, 92.96% to control the T1 MEC and 75.73% to control the T2 MEC. Notice that the same debuff increased the chance to control a T1 MEC by 28.05% but only 22.27% for the T2 MEC.

After Bluescreen Bombs we start to add shots with redscreen rounds. One shot is enough to 100% control a T1 MEC and 99.5% control a T2.

T3 MECs and Sectopods are very hard to control and require much more hack defense debuffing than other targets. Against a T3 MEC the Specialist we used as an example has 37.87% chance to control. A hit with Bluescreen Bombs increases this to 47.83% (a 9.96% increase, much smaller than what we are used to with weaker MECs). Most of the time 2 hits with Redscreen Rounds + one Bluescreen Bomb is enough to get 100%, but 3 hits are necessary if you want to get 100% reliably. Against a Sectopod we need 5 hits with Redscreen + Bluescreen.

Full Override makes controlling high hack defense enemies much easier reducing the number of debuffs you need by one or sometimes even two. A 150 Hack Specialist can 100% Full Override a T2 Drone without any debuff, 100% a T2 MEC or a Longbow with only Bluescreen, 99.55% a T3 MEC with Bluescreen and one hit of Redscreen or 100% a Sectopod with Bluescreen + 4 hits of Redscreen (3 hits are enough to get 93.35%).
gimrah
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by gimrah »

Thanks faket. Do you have the actual debuff numbers? As in bluescreen is -X hack defence, redscreen -Y and arc pulser -Z?

Also does arc pulser debuff change with higher tier arc pulsers?

UFOpaedia appears to be down at the moment but in any case I'm 98.764% certain that information is not on there as I've looked for it before.
faket15
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by faket15 »

gimrah wrote:Thanks faket. Do you have the actual debuff numbers? As in bluescreen is -X hack defence, redscreen -Y and arc pulser -Z?

Also does arc pulser debuff change with higher tier arc pulsers?

UFOpaedia appears to be down at the moment but in any case I'm 98.764% certain that information is not on there as I've looked for it before.
Both Bluescreen Bombs and Redscreen Rounds are -25. Arc Pulser is -20 and doesn't change with higher tier.
DerAva
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by DerAva »

gimrah wrote:Thanks faket. Do you have the actual debuff numbers? As in bluescreen is -X hack defence, redscreen -Y and arc pulser -Z?

Also does arc pulser debuff change with higher tier arc pulsers?

UFOpaedia appears to be down at the moment but in any case I'm 98.764% certain that information is not on there as I've looked for it before.

The temporarily moved hosts to ufopedia.info - the debuff values are listed there for redscreens and arc pulsar, not for the bluescreen bombs. They match the numbers mentioned by faket.
Noober
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by Noober »

faket15 wrote: Full Override makes controlling high hack defense enemies much easier reducing the number of debuffs you need by one or sometimes even two. A 150 Hack Specialist can 100% Full Override a T2 Drone without any debuff, 100% a T2 MEC or a Longbow with only Bluescreen, 99.55% a T3 MEC with Bluescreen and one hit of Redscreen or 100% a Sectopod with Bluescreen + 4 hits of Redscreen (3 hits are enough to get 93.35%).
There is also a Firewall DE which increase hack defence of all MECs by +15.
Basically it means +1 RS shot to hit 100% control of M3s so to get 100% base FO Sectopod it requires BS + 4 RS shots (can still be 3 with high roll and good PCS like +21 to hack).
I've got 96% with Firewall DE and BS+3 RS shots but I had an Enemy Protocol (+10 hack) and +21 hack PCS.
This makes RF ranger/gunner an excellent candidates for RS rounds as it allows you to control any MEC at the turn of activation (with command - for Sectopod).
gimrah
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by gimrah »

Thanks all. I saw the redscreen on the wiki but not the others so appreciate it.

I like putting redscreen on pistol users: lots of shots but you don't ding up your target that badly. And then if the pistol user is not on a mission with a decent hacker he can take shredder rounds instead. If only fan fire applied 3x the effect but I believe it doesn't. Still, you can get 3 hits in one turn with lightning hands.

Though while we're on the topic of anti-mech tactics, does anyone know the shutdown chances on EMP grenades? Does it improve at EMP bomb upgrade?
faket15
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by faket15 »

gimrah wrote:Though while we're on the topic of anti-mech tactics, does anyone know the shutdown chances on EMP grenades? Does it improve at EMP bomb upgrade?
From what I remember it's 33% for EMP Grenades and 50% for EMP Bombs but I didn't check recently.
Redshirt4life
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by Redshirt4life »

Specialists make great overwatch troopers far earlier then infantry. They get two shots with one rank. Two shots is better then one with overwatch. If you as much as graze the enemy, they lose their yellow alert action. Its really nice to have someone early who can effectively shut down yellow alert so early. Unlike rangers, specialists are not penalized for missing shots, so covering fire is actually really nice to have. The -10 aim debuff makes overwatch function like a poor-mans suppression.

But thats not all a specialist can do either. And you may be underestimating these abilities if you think they are the weakest class. I build my specialists as light infantry. They need decent aim and defense preferably, but they don't need mobility or hitpoints like the frontliners. Ranks go as follows:

Lcpl- Sentinel
Cpl-covering fire
Sgt-Trojan
Ssgt- ever vigilant
Tsgt- cool under pressure
Gsgt- Full Override
Msgt- Restoration

Gear:
Poison rounds (later dragon), Medkit (later skulljack), vest
Rifle, or SMG, depending on how fast you want the specialist to go.
PCS- Hacking

Their primary, default action is to double move into overwatch to stop yellow alerts, reduce the enemy aim, and whittle down reinforcements. Since Robots don't often run overwatch I actually went with poison rounds for the potential to add another -25 aim for a total of -35 aim plus red fog (the +1 damage applies to all targets as far as I know.). Having specialists with overwatch frees my infantry up to be crit infantry. Its getting much of the same utility an OW infantry has plus several other useful utilities.

Their second job is to destroy drones without revealing the squad. This is a big deal as there is no other soldier capable of doing this. Hacking a drone to shut it down is easy, practically garunteed, and trojan will destroy the drone when the hack ends. None of this breaks concealment. Saving the entire squads concealment plus destroying an enemy is huge value.

Third is stunning Mecs. Again, shut down on Mecs is pretty easy. The upgraded gremlins come along once Mecs become a thing. It shuts the mec down for two turns, plus it loses a turn and takes significant damage from trojan when the hack ends. The only other class that can CC a Mec is a grenadier with sting grenades at a 50% chance, no damage, and for half the time.

Fourth, taking over Mecs and drones. Support grenadiers with bluescreen can reduce the hacking difficulty at a very low opportunity cost. Unlike ammo, that grenade has other uses and the hacking debuff is simply icing on the cake. Typically the robot is just another target in a large AOE flashbang. Hacking Mecs is safe if you know your squad can handle the bot if the hack fails, and can really help the team with any upcoming pods. If you stack +hacking the chances aren't all that bad. Drones are the safest targets as hacking them is practically garunteed and they make great distractions. Bonus points if the drone pulls off a stun. Full override is on a seperate cooldown so the haywire can be used early in The fight and full override can be used on the next turn.

Fifth, supporting the team. Aid protocol can be clutch. Single action, single target flashbang that doesn't end the turn. The rest of the left side is crap though. No free action heals, no free medkits, no healing ablative. But, restoration is a great option when things go south. It revives, heals, and clears negative effects on the entire squad. Its a revival protocol plus free heals for the entire squad.

Sixth, remote hacking and free stuff. Remote hacking can save missions, but its meh IMO, but the increased chances of rewards really adds up over time. Skulljacks plus hacking PCS stacks up the odds pretty favorably. Large supplies and large alloys are really nice free loot. And just like taking over bots, it pays to stack the hack like this. As far as I see it, the skulljacks pay for themselves for that +20 hacking.
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by Psieye »

Redshirt4life wrote:you may be underestimating these abilities if you think they are the weakest class
In my view, even you are underestimating specialists. Then again, it requires distorted conditions to make the most of them.
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gimrah
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by gimrah »

Thanks. I pretty much do Redshirt4life's build.

I get that but still find them so so except on hack missions. They just don't get enough kills to rank up fast enough to stay relevant. Also I never seem to lib very early so MkII gremlin comes quite late. And skullmining is later still because it's expensive.

It's probably playstyle and my suboptimal strategic layer.
Redshirt4life
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by Redshirt4life »

There isn't really any point where they are weak though. Specialists and rangers are the only two classes that start with the ability to fire two shots at LCPL, so just give them a big gun and let them go to town. Once they get trojan every drone is a free kill. Once they get cool under pressure their overwatch shots become deadly on their own. Sure they don't get the glory of a DFA sniper, but even a green specialist can shut down drones to keep concealment and stop yellow alert actions with sentinel.

Gremlins and skulljacks pay for themselves by increasing your ability to hack for hooch, so the cost of these items isn't as much as it appears at face value.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Specialist even don't need gun.
One lamp post is worth S&G.
Shooting with them counts as extra action :D :D .
They could be civilians if you ask me. I have stockpile of engineers. I wish they could become unarmed or pistol Specialist .
Just two hacking perks is all they need . Specialist can work with just two perks

They generate (or in most cases not) lots of goodies per mission. Supporting war effort beyond imaginable until first supply raid.
After that they are worth almost as supply raid and they can shoot, support, skulljack and heal.
Few early lamp post hacks can net you vests. I need those vests and alloys.
I won't even start about two hack missions (intel, rebels, supply, PCS). That is super strength of Specialist.
Legendary play excluded - timers , reinforcements and everything makes them less profitable but they are still huge income boost.
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gimrah
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by gimrah »

Yeah... Though IME lamp posts are often tactical rewards and/or the odds aren't great vs having rnfs dropped on you. It's the odd bonus here and there.

And in battles I don't value OW shots nearly as much as shots I control. And those shots are bad until CuP at TSGT. Yes yellow alert on the odd pod leader. But in GOps I'm usually yellow moving between engagements so it's useless until SSGT. And in static missions anyone can OW.
Redshirt4life
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by Redshirt4life »

If you are yellow moving between engagements then a specialist with EV and sentinel is even more valuable at stopping yellow alert actions, which are one of the most dangerous things in the game. Even in the best scenarios all your soldiers will waste their shots on the first target, and its the second target that takes a yellow alert action to kill a teammate. Sentinel puts an end to this as a free action with EV.
gimrah
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by gimrah »

True. At SSGT. If they hit. Which they probably won't before CuP at TSGT.

I agree once you get to that level they become good but I find it such a slog getting them there.
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by Psieye »

The danger of yellow-alert is when you don't know if/where it will come. Get rid of that uncertainty and it's not so dangerous - they still need to aim.
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Redshirt4life
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by Redshirt4life »

Well we can definately favor/disfavor certain classes based on playstyle and there's nothing wrong with that. It could be about the investment given as we do have to prioritize and this normally means we give the best to the classes we lean on the most.

In my commander campaign my specialist just made first to TSGT with the most kills in the roster. He started with 14 movement, 72 aim, and 7 hacking. I make low movement high aim soldiers into specialists (so its between specialists and sharpshooters with those stats.). They get first pick of laser rifles and run with nothing but a vest until they get EV, at which point they can double move and fire twice.

Aliens running the overwatch have a very high chance to get hit and the laser rifle can one-shot tier 1 advent, so it was common for him to score multiple kills before the engagement even begins. When things go poorly my soldiers will fall back, and he again secures multiple kills. On haven assault he scored most of the kills alone just overwatching on a rooftop. Hacking drones has worked out quite well for him too. Once he hit sgt I no longer had to worry so much about drones breaking concealment.

The fact that he is rolling around with such a high base aim may be the thing which distinguishes him here.
gimrah
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by gimrah »

Yup. Playstyle. I would make that soldier a shooty ranger and prioritise kit in the same way.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out going for utility specs again. Although this campaign is not going well for other reasons. Maybe next one...
Psieye
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by Psieye »

Very much playstyle, yeah. A 72 Aim rookie would become a sniper if I had my way.
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gimrah
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Re: Is there a list of hack debuffs?

Post by gimrah »

Yeah it does depend on other stats too. Decent defensive stats goes ranger, weak defensive stats goes sharpshooter. And then low movement goes DfA. High movement goes snapshot.
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