Chryssalid Queen poison damage

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mudhut79
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Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by mudhut79 »

So traumatised right now:
MSgt Assault blue moves forward with no pods active - trips a Queen from burrow. She hits for 12 or 13 (can't remember if he started with 18 or 19 HP). Sucks, but that's Xcom baby - he has 7 HP left, so it might be a month in the medbay but he's not really at risk of death. I bring him back into low cover (cause of yellow alert shots) and move Specialist officer next to him (no Med protocol) to heal poison at start of next turn. Poison ticks for 8 damage! He dies (no bleed out) and I weep, oh how I weep, for the loss of such a key soldier.

So apparently the Chryssalid queen poison does 8 damage each tick? Had no idea it could get that high. Many questions spring to mind:
-Anyone know the damage range? (for future planning)
-Anyone else think this is a bit over the top? I mean strikes from burrow are really hard to avoid...
-I had Stay With Me, did I just roll badly on the bleed out chance or does poison somehow bypass the normal save roll?

PS Bonus questions for better players than me - the specialist could have reached him to heal that turn if both stood in the open. I had one pod left which walked in that turn - two muton elites and officer as it turned out. If I had known about the poison damage range (had no idea it could be more than 3!), would I have been better off risking the yellow alert shots (Veteran level) on them and immediately healing? It was base medkit so he would have been on 11 HP, specialist had 15 HP I think. Just trying to improve my play.... also cause I will feel even worse if it was a misplay that cost him his life. Farewell Trojan, you will be sorely missed!
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8wayz
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by 8wayz »

A couple of tips how you may prevent it:

From mid-campaign you will need to equip your assaults to take and survive all kinds of nasty damage. As such, Hazmat vest (immune to acid, fire and poison and grants extra HP) and Chitin Plating (reduces melee damage by 50% ) are a must against Chrysalids and Faceless.
My Assaults always carry at least a Med Kit from the start to be immune to poison and also to help out treat others with poison/wounds if needed. As they are fast, they can get anywhere in no time.

As a rule of thumb, it does not matter how much Ablative or Armor points you have, if the enemy can inflict a status on you (Acid/Poison/Fire), your soldier will suffer a lot.

Battle Scanners and Scanning protocol could also help you on missions when you hear Chrysalids on the map and have a big open space to cross.

Bladestorm with a weapon that induces burning can negate the melee attack of a Chrysalid.

On your question on whether it was worth it :
Yep, staying in the open and stopping the poison is definitely worth it. Although if you have a smoke grenade at hand, it will be perfect.

On how much damage the Queen does:
I need to look up in the files, but keep in mind that Long War 2 is balanced to be unfair to the player. Most of the late-game enemies usually can one-shot you, especially on higher difficulties.
Last edited by 8wayz on Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
mudhut79
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by mudhut79 »

Thanks 8wayz, appreciate the advice. So perhaps it was a misplay on my part then, and I should have risked the yellow alert shots and immediately healed. I feel like knowing when to stand your guys in the open is one of the things that separates good players from bad (me). I see XWynn do it a lot and I think 'That's crazy he is bound to get shot in the open!' but inevitably it works for him.

BUT

I am still confused about the poison tick damage being so high - because of what you wrote I went digging and found this in XComGameData_WeaponData (in the LW2 config file folder):

HiveQueen_Wpn_BaseDamage = (Damage=12, Spread = 0, PlusOne = 50, Crit = 2, Pierce = 0, Shred = 0, Tag = "", DamageType="Melee")
HiveQueen_MeleeAttack_BaseDamage= (Damage=12, Spread = 0, PlusOne = 50, Crit = 2, Pierce = 0, Shred=0, Tag = "", DamageType="Melee")
HiveQueen_ParthenogenicPoison_BaseDamage= (Damage=2, Spread=1, PlusOne=0, Crit=0, Pierce=99, Shred=0, Tag = "", DamageType="Poison")
HiveQueen_idealRange=1

Am I reading that right - poison should still have been 3 damage max? I feel like that is the most I have seen previously on any poisoning. So maybe it was/is a bug? I mean I am hazy on the exact starting XP but 100% sure he had 7 HP remaining and perfect information showed 8 damage....
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8wayz
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by 8wayz »

Hey,

The thing I am not sure is whether the Hive Queen applies 1 or 2 types of poison.

For example Vipers apply normal poison which usually does 1 per turn. Chryssalids apply Incubation poison, which is about 2-3 per turn.

I have yet to meet the Hive Queen in game, but from you are describing it seems that it applies either 2 ticks of poison damage, or two different types at the same time. Did the soldier create a cocoon after expiring ?

When you stay in the open and use Aid Protocol/Smoke you bait the enemy but also manage to complete an action which will take you an extra turn or two to do so. In your case if you heal the soldier and he survives the pod's activation on the next turn you will still have a 2-action, non-poisoned soldier (no malus to Aim, Defence, etc) compared to either a dead or still poisoned one in cover.

If you play with SPARKs you should be used to not having cover at all times.
LordYanaek
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by LordYanaek »

There are entries in XComLW_AlienPack.ini

Code: Select all

CHRYSSALID_SOLDIER_SLASH_BONUS_DAMAGE=2
HIVE_QUEEN_SLASH_BONUS_DAMAGE=6
Not sure whether they apply to the slash attack itself, the poison or both but it might explain those 8 points of poison damage.

I never had a soldier hit by a queen and not wearing Hazmat vest survive the initial attack so i can't tell. Sounds a lot but the queen is a (mini) boss so i guess it's supposed to be scary. It seems like X2Effect_HiveQueenSlash.uc creates a persistent effect and there's a reference to bonus damage in that file so my guess is the poison uses the bonus damage listed above and thus is very strong.
Looks like soldiers also inflict a stronger poison (thought not as strong as the queen) but i'm not the best code digger around.
Psieye
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by Psieye »

Question: if a soldier has both Chitin Plating (50% melee damage taken) and Iron Skin PCS (-3 melee damage taken), what order are they applied in?
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mudhut79
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by mudhut79 »

8wayz -> yeah he was cocooned after death, so I think your theory on two types of poison works. And LordYanaek has found a likely candidate there, even though I wouldn't necessarily have interpreted 'bonus slash damage' as applying to the poison instead of the initial strike! But the math fits if he took a base 12 wound (no bonus slash damage) down from 19 to 7 HP, then rolled base 2 poison + 6 bonus queen bonus poison damage. Thanks guys.
Would be more convincing still if someone had seen 4 or 5 damage totals from Soldier poison (1-3 normal plus 2 bonus)? Anyone?

I was also thinking if it is just a rupture effect? I don't recall seeing that onscreen though (perfect info icon).

Hey the idea of massive poison damage over time might be an option for balancing XCOM grenades (I know this is a fraught discussion but still). Different roles as:
Plasma - All rounder: decent damage + small shred + Cover removal (that being the biggest draw really)
Acid - some damage + rupture + massive shred (big draw once gatekeepers arrive)
Flash - no damage + weaker control on many targets (great control with sting perk obviously)
Fire - Less damage + strong control on few targets (yes I know, I know, not meant to be the main feature, but IMHO even with 85% chance it is still the reason it gets used)
Poison - No initial damage + large damage over time (increasing damage would be an idea, like 1-3 turn one, 4-6 turn two, 7-9 turn three!?) Or what if it poison did massive damage the turn after it was applied (so they still get one action round before it hits). I think you keep the small aim penalty as at present but allow actions. All of this relies on having a set poison duration of course (rather than RNG as at present)
TrainInVain
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by TrainInVain »

I may be blind but I don't see where Chitin plating says it reduces melee damage. Checked in game and ufopaedia.
Swiftless
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by Swiftless »

TrainInVain wrote:I may be blind but I don't see where Chitin plating says it reduces melee damage. Checked in game and ufopaedia.
I was wondering that too. I've never noticed the Chitin plating description saying it reduces melee damage.
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by gimrah »

I don't think chitin does anything against melee in LW2. it's just another ablative HP. And none of the other ablative platings have special properties. Hellweave doesn't stop melee but it does burn attackers, which is... 100% pointless.

I would agree with Xwynns that burrow is stupid - IMO that's more the problem than how hard the Hive Queen hits. Burrow is unblockable - even combatives doesn't work because the attack is on your turn. And it's not practical in LW2 to reveal the whole map with scanners or scanning protocol.

So when this exact thing happened to my shinobi I confess I just savescummed it. As the player I retain cheese precedence.

If you're less cheap than me, then my only tip is to bring a Spark on the Psi Gate mission. Probably instead of a shinobi. The map is quite dense with enemies so scout/sniping is unlikely to be on the cards much, plus you want as many guys as possible firing when you're in those fights. And then you can use the Spark to scout, preferably with aid protocol applied. Between inherent defence, armour and poison immunity the Spark is your best candidate for drawing out burrowed lids.
JM01
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by JM01 »

Im pretty sure that DOT damage in the game works the same for all kinds of DOTs (acid, fire, poison) in that the amount of damage the DOT ticks for is dependent on the amount of damage that the attack that applies the DOT did.

I have confirmed this by looking at how plasma swords and fire grenades work. The one that has worked the best is the fire sword because of how graze has affected the damage range on it. There have been times where I hit an enemy with a fusion blade for 16+ damage and then on the enemy turn they burn for 8. Then I have had times where I hit them for about 7 because of graze and then they only burn for about 2 to 3 which is normal for an average burn. Looks like poison is really no different. The only reason poison usually does so little damage is because just about all of the time you get poisoned it's from an ability that does not apply any initial damage but now that you have a Hive Queen that can hit you for over 10 damage you can see the poison ticking for a lot higher than normal.

Acid is kind of the exception here and only really in Long War as acid does not rupture in vanilla but the rupture makes the acid burn tick for a lot higher than a normal dot.

tl;dr it seems that DOTs tick for a percentage of the initial damage that applied the DOT.
LordYanaek
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by LordYanaek »

JM01 wrote:Im pretty sure that DOT damage in the game works the same for all kinds of DOTs (acid, fire, poison) in that the amount of damage the DOT ticks for is dependent on the amount of damage that the attack that applies the DOT did.
As far as i know only crits change the DoT.

Burrow is OK on the smaller chrysalids for me but i think something as large a a Soldier (or Queen!) shouldn't be able to burrow.
An even more interesting option would be to have multiple variations of crysalids, some that would burrow but have no poison (they are annoying because they can reveal you), others that would poison and create cocoons and yet another one that would be the old "zombie rising" chrysalid. I think Firaxis totally failed to make the chrysalids "more scary" with the cocoon, especially considering the young that come out is usually not much of a threat while having to kill your own soldier turned a zombie by the poison is scary beyond the game mechanism.
Swiftless
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by Swiftless »

LordYanaek wrote: As far as i know only crits change the DoT.
I know that rupture doesn't change dot damage. I've had a few stacks of rupture on a target once and inflicted a burning proc after the rupture applications from dragon rounds on said target. The burning damage only ended up ticking for 1 damage.
gimrah
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by gimrah »

LordYanaek wrote:
JM01 wrote:Im pretty sure that DOT damage in the game works the same for all kinds of DOTs (acid, fire, poison) in that the amount of damage the DOT ticks for is dependent on the amount of damage that the attack that applies the DOT did.
As far as i know only crits change the DoT.

Burrow is OK on the smaller chrysalids for me but i think something as large a a Soldier (or Queen!) shouldn't be able to burrow.
An even more interesting option would be to have multiple variations of crysalids, some that would burrow but have no poison (they are annoying because they can reveal you), others that would poison and create cocoons and yet another one that would be the old "zombie rising" chrysalid. I think Firaxis totally failed to make the chrysalids "more scary" with the cocoon, especially considering the young that come out is usually not much of a threat while having to kill your own soldier turned a zombie by the poison is scary beyond the game mechanism.
I suspect new lids are really a product of Firaxis going for a lower/younger rating. So advent are non-human with green blood, instead of exalt fountaining gore and pleading for their mothers. And lids no longer burst out of your soldiers. I really miss that and I'm hoping Phoenix Point gives us back the visceral horror since Julian says they are not going for the lower/younger rating.
mudhut79
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Re: Chryssalid Queen poison damage

Post by mudhut79 »

Swiftless - see I thought that rupture did change the DoT (for burning at least, and so I assumed for poison) cause I had seen a ruptured target take damage above the max burn roll. I could be wrong of course (or the game could be varying the rupture/DoT interaction based on some other perk or variable?)

gimrah/LordYanaek - I think the cocoons and spawning chryssalids can be scary enough in the right circumstances, at least in a gameplay sense of scary (not necessarily the sense you meant, I know). Allow me to share my best worst story from my just-completed campaign:

[sorry in advance for length]

Jailbreak, very light, with a six person team. Extract is right by the starting position and it was a pretty big map, so a fair way to travel. Cells are at the back of a building with a large central room (I think of it as an Advent conference center…).

Main part of the mission goes well, but slowly--for some reason I had two gunners on the op, so a lot of suppression and whittling them down. I take no wounds in clearing all four pods, but by the time I do so reinforcement warning is imminent.

The specialist moves into the back room and hacks. Five prisoners free from two cells, hooray! Everyone else starts to reload, move back towards the evac, taking up positions on the roof etc to be ready for the reinforcements. I dash the two prisoners from first cell and then the next one selects… but can’t leave the second cell. Huh? I mean I hacked one of the cell doors, has the other one not opened because of some sort of glitch or something!? Wait, he can move one step closer to the door, perhaps then he can open it….

…he can’t get out because there is a Chryssalid burrowed inside the cell. Inside the cell. The tile immediately adjacent to the door, inside the cell. My rapidly rising sense of doom is matched by my admiration for the Advent general who laid this trap to make sure those prisoners were never leaving that cell alive...

First prisoner has just activated the 'lid, so he gets insta-gibbed and cocooned. The second and third prisoners can’t get past the chryssalid, so they just cower in terror. I can’t even bring anyone back to help, the specialist just moved and hacked, no one else even has line of sight. Another prisoner dies on the alien turn, and now I am looking at reinforcements dropping at the end of this turn and new spawning chryssalids and half the squad are more than a yellow move away from the back room...

This is one of those points where you have to take stock: do we cut and run? The specialist is slow and closest to the lids. He is also my officer (so can't be commanded). I order the squad to run, I sign his death warrant with a big sharp poison-laden claw. But if everyone else dashes now, they get ahead of the reinforcements, pretty much guaranteed to be safe. One of the prisoners is fast too, so it would even be a successful mission. Would a better Commander know this is the time to cut losses, pay that steep price and have the others live to fight another day?

But I'm not a better commander, and I can't bear the thought of leaving him behind, so everyone comes back. I have R+G up on my CCS assault, and can command another soldier back in to get LOS, so we have just enough firepower to kill the original lid. Third prisoner in the Cell of Claws is designated playmate for the baby lids... a couple of overwatches inside (lids) and outside (reinforcements).

RNF pod of just two (Mec & Sentinel) drops outside the building, but of course they are now between me and the fixed evac. I have plenty of firepower inside the building, but another tough strategic decision to make: do I leave baby lids spawning behind me? I have to go into the cell to get LOS on the cocoons, which means more delay.... but I figure it is the lesser of two evils. I can't kill the outside reinforcements so we are all inside covering the doors and cleaning up in Chryssalid Daycare while who knows what Advent is doing on the roof...

And next turn reinforcements go red again. Gah. Got to move, and here the damage starts to stack up. One soldier is hit by overwatch exiting the back room, and then I am unable to clear the sentinel that turn (distant high cover). Sentinel wounds another on the alien turn while a pod of three drops pretty much on me. Upside - moving towards evac allows me to flank and kill two - downside - I still have two enemies alive at the end of turn. At least they are behind me now. I juggle the wounded soldiers to the most protected positions, which means they are going to around the back of the evac building to get out. An extra turn of running.

Another soldier is hit on the alien turn (was only in low cover). I break an overwatch with one of the two remaining prisoners (he survives!), note that my gunners are just along for the ride from now on (autoloaders long gone of course) and we dash. There is an Archer in the latest pod, so we have that too - I clump the uninjured troops to draw missiles. Reinforcements every turn now of course, final turn the fast troops at the evac shoot back to at least break overwatches as the slowest troops finally reach out for those ropes. All soldiers bar one are wounded but NOBODY is dead. Well, except for the three inhabitants of Cell Block Chryssalid...

JL, if you're reading, I know you couldn't do it too often or it would get predictable - but if you were to sneak in code that says, just once in each campaign, a chryssalid spawns at the doorway inside a cell, I think that would be an act of pure evil genius (wait, you say, that code is already there!?)
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