Crit against 50+ dodge shinoby?

[Noober]

Hello everyone!

I've already have several occasions when my dodge stacking shinobis was critically hit by ayys while ayy's crit chance was less then shinobis dodge.
Last time it was turret hitting my shinoby in the open (40 cirt) while shinoby has 50 dodge +3 from hard target.
As far as I understand both ayys and me use the same roll for crit/dodge and if my dodge is more then their crit - there is no chance to be critically hit as successfull ayy's crit roll will be downrolled to regular hit by my succesful dodge roll and it should be an auto-success as my dodge is higher then their crit.
But it seems not working at all.

Could anyone explain why?

What's the point of dodge stacking if the mechanic is not working as it should?

Edit: I forget to point that my shinoby had a nano-vest so the turret's crit chance was only 40-25=15% vs 53 dodge!
That makes things even worse.

[faket15]

Looks like you don't understand how it really works. Let's say the Turret had 70 hit, 15 crit and you had 50 dodge. Using the graze band 70 hit becomes 60% hit and 20% graze. 15% crit chance turns this into 9% crit, 54% hit, 17% graze and then 50% dodge turns this into 5% crit, 31% hit, 36% graze.

[Noober]

Heavy turret has 10 to crit not 15 and there is no crit DE yet.
Nano-vest subtract 25 from crit chance so even if it works that way turret still shouldn't crit my shinoby at all.

[Phaseless]

Heavy turret has 10 to crit not 15 and there is no crit DE yet.
Nano-vest subtract 25 from crit chance so even if it works that way turret still shouldn't crit my shinoby at all.

Not sure how it works. If it subtracts a flat 25 crit% then yes, it shouldn't happen, but if it subtracts 25% from the final crit Chance, that would mean the 9% faket mention minus 2,2%.

[faket15]

In LW2 there is a single roll but the hit/crit/graze/miss chances are calculated in a way that gives you exactly the same result you would get by using three independent rolls. Dodge doesn't reduce crit directly, it gives you a chance to downgrade crits to hits, hit to grazes and grazes to misses. This chance is applied uniformly: 50% dodge means half of your crit become hits, half of your hits become grazes and half of your grazes become misses. It doesn't apply first to crits or anything like that.

EDIT: corrected

[Phaseless]

In LW2 there is a single roll but the hit/crit/graze/miss chances are calculated in a way that gives you exactly the same result you would get by using three independent rolls. Dodge doesn't reduce crit directly, it gives you a chance to downgrade crits to hits, hit to grazes and grazes to misses. This chance is applied uniformly: 50% dodge means half of your crit become hits, half of your hits become grazes and half of your grazes become hits. It doesn't apply first to crits or anything like that.

Oooh ok! I guess you meant: "50% dodge means half of your crit become hits, half of your hits become grazes and half of your grazes become misses"

[Noober]

Lets take a heavy turret (70 aim 10 base crit) and shinoby (2 def, 50 dodge) staying in the open (+40 crit to the turret) wearing nano-vest (-25 to crit chance).
As far as I understand base turret chance is following
29 crit
39 hit
10 graze
22 miss

Then 50 dodge change this into following:
15 crit
34 hit
25 graze
27 miss

And then the vest should reduce 15 crit to 0 (-10 actually). Don't know if it increase hit to 34+15 but crit chance should be 0!

Am I right?

[LordYanaek]

It would require code digging to know the order the modifiers are applied.

If the vest is checked first : 40+10-25 = 25%. Then the graze band modifies it to 20% and finally your dodge is applied bringing crit chance to 10%.

[faket15]

Lets take a heavy turret (70 aim 10 base crit) and shinoby (2 def, 50 dodge) staying in the open (+40 crit to the turret) wearing nano-vest (-25 to crit chance).
As far as I understand base turret chance is following
29 crit
39 hit
10 graze
22 miss

Then 50 dodge change this into following:
15 crit
34 hit
25 graze
27 miss

And then the vest should reduce 15 crit to 0 (-10 actually). Don't know if it increase hit to 34+15 but crit chance should be 0!

Am I right?

Crit Reduction from the vest applies before the calculation. It's a lot easier to understand if you think about it as three independent rolls: one to hit, one to crit and one to dodge. Modifiers to hit chance apply to the first roll, modifiers to crit apply to the second and modifiers to dodge apply to the third.

[Noober]

Ok, understand, thanks!

[Phaseless]

Lets take a heavy turret (70 aim 10 base crit) and shinoby (2 def, 50 dodge) staying in the open (+40 crit to the turret) wearing nano-vest (-25 to crit chance).
As far as I understand base turret chance is following
29 crit
39 hit
10 graze
22 miss

Then 50 dodge change this into following:
15 crit
34 hit
25 graze
27 miss

And then the vest should reduce 15 crit to 0 (-10 actually). Don't know if it increase hit to 34+15 but crit chance should be 0!

Am I right?

Crit Reduction from the vest applies before the calculation. It's a lot easier to understand if you think about it as three independent rolls: one to hit, one to crit and one to dodge. Modifiers to hit chance apply to the first roll, modifiers to crit apply to the second and modifiers to dodge apply to the third.

I noticed that precision shot and let them have it increase base hit Chance. Is that exactly because crits get rolled first and the higher crit Chance being handled first, increased overall Chance to hit?

[faket15]

Lets take a heavy turret (70 aim 10 base crit) and shinoby (2 def, 50 dodge) staying in the open (+40 crit to the turret) wearing nano-vest (-25 to crit chance).
As far as I understand base turret chance is following
29 crit
39 hit
10 graze
22 miss

Then 50 dodge change this into following:
15 crit
34 hit
25 graze
27 miss

And then the vest should reduce 15 crit to 0 (-10 actually). Don't know if it increase hit to 34+15 but crit chance should be 0!

Am I right?

Crit Reduction from the vest applies before the calculation. It's a lot easier to understand if you think about it as three independent rolls: one to hit, one to crit and one to dodge. Modifiers to hit chance apply to the first roll, modifiers to crit apply to the second and modifiers to dodge apply to the third.

I noticed that precision shot and let them have it increase base hit Chance. Is that exactly because crits get rolled first and the higher crit Chance being handled first, increased overall Chance to hit?

Yes and the numbers given by Perfect Information for LW2 reflect this. Against an enemy with no dodge Precision Shot turns up to 6% of your shots from grazes to hits.

[nmkaplan]

Crit Reduction from the vest applies before the calculation. It's a lot easier to understand if you think about it as three independent rolls: one to hit, one to crit and one to dodge. Modifiers to hit chance apply to the first roll, modifiers to crit apply to the second and modifiers to dodge apply to the third.

I noticed that precision shot and let them have it increase base hit Chance. Is that exactly because crits get rolled first and the higher crit Chance being handled first, increased overall Chance to hit?

Yes and the numbers given by Perfect Information for LW2 reflect this. Against an enemy with no dodge Precision Shot turns up to 6% of your shots from grazes to hits.

Yeah, there are funky edge cases. I remember seeing in one of Xwynns videos, an advent officer took a point blank shot against a high dodge shinobi, and missed completely. Perfect information reported the shot as 100%. This can happen if the shot rolls within the graze band (10% chance of happening on a 100% shot) and then dodge "downgrades" the graze to a miss.

[SonnyWiFiHr]

There.
https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/fil ... 1094055530