Crippling RNG, no agency.

Tac1
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Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Tac1 »

I'll try to be brief. After 32 hours of gameplay, I have absolutely lost all sense of relevancy in this game. The horrific, crippling RNG and the utter inability to affect this game whatsoever has obliterated any tactical decision I can make.

My last mission is a prime example, and a frustratingly common one.

Two rangers, an assault, gunner, and rookie hitting a Supply depot. Two turns of moving up, nothing sighted. Put my ranger into high-cover and immediately trigger two pods that just happen to be flanking the entire unit. I stroked out and nobody died, despite severe injuries, and started fighting it out.

Flanked an Advent Trooper with a rookie and my assault. 82% to hit, 70% to hit, both miss. Ranger Light'Em'Up for 48%, miss, and Walk Fire for 78%, miss. It's clear I'll never kill the pod before their turn, so I start in with crowd control. Gunner suppresses an area, catching three of them, and my remaining ranger flashbangs the same three. They each fire at targets in high-cover, hit for maximum damage, and in one turn obliterates half my squad.

Trying to salvage this mess, I have my assault run&gun into a flank and fire. 98% to hit, he misses. His target, flashbanged and suppressed, fires back at him and hits, crits, and kills him on the spot.

Previous mission, we wipe a pod during an ambush, only an Advent trooper remains. Grenadier grenades his cover, leaves him flanked by two rangers, a sharpshooter, and a rookie. They all fire at over 80% to hit, and every one of them misses. The trooper doesn't even relocate, he immediately fires and hits my rookie, killing him instantly with a crit.

My last Operation Gatecrasher failed because a Drone literally floated in place and survived the combined fire of three rookies for five turns straight, while going from man-to-man stunning everyone while the other aliens just slaughtered them. This has become such a massive issue that I've begun fielding entire squads solely with grenades, 'winning' missions with zero shots taken by just grenading everything even remotely threatening while blitzing objectives and evacing immediately after.

Every guide I've seen advocates flashbangs like some godlike tool of squad preservation. "Flashbangs effectively neuter everything" is a phrase I've read more than I can count. But I have yet to see anything to back them up. High-cover, smoked, AID-protocol, and flashbanged targets and they still consistently land shots I wouldn't consider humouring even out of sheer desperation. It's reached a point where I consider even allowing an enemy to survive to take a shot equaling an unavoidable loss of life, solely because the AI never misses. Meanwhile, I've had 'successful' missions that end with a successful shot percentage of 19%, after spending ten turns repeatedly flanking, firing, and missing the same near-death trooper that, for grace of god, is built with more plot armour than Harry Potter.

Overwatch has been the utter bane of my existence. While the enemy seems untouchable as they run straight through four or five of my own overwatch, I don't dare tempt even one because of how frequently the AI nails them. I don't remember the last time I've seen an enemy unit graze my own. While nearly all of my few successful shots are grazes, the enemy always nails that 1% to hit proper.

I never had this issue in the vanilla game or in the first long war. So, simply, what the hell?
Jacke
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Jacke »

Wow.

I think there's an issue with your XCOM 2 / LW2 install. For the attacks for which you gave percentages, the combined chance they would all legitimately miss is 0.0124%.

You should take a look at the Long War 2 Bug Reports subforum.

You should definitely read this pinned article there: How to troubleshoot and make a bug report

Beyond what Pavonis has in their troubleshooting article, I suggest you switch to using the Alternate Mod Launcher. It allows better control of mods and seeing when they've updated.
Tac1
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Tac1 »

I'll try for a reinstall and hope for the best. If nothing else, at least breakfast was good.
Tac1
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Tac1 »

No luck. I still have Advent routinely taking and succeeding 8% shots, while my troops just fail anything not rubber stamped by some higher power.
Doctor Sticks
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Doctor Sticks »

I would recommend that you install the "Reliable Damage" mod, which effectively removes this problem. It causes damage to become more normalized.

As an example, if you have a 50% chance to hit a enemy with a 3-5 damage spread, RD will translate that into 1.5-2.5 damage you will cause (hit chance times the damage spread). So you could hit for as little as 1, or as much as 3, but the most common result will be 2. Keep in mind that this makes armor a little more effective, but it also makes flanks very effective, due to the Critical hit chance modifier.

The flip side is that if you have a solider left out in the open, they are RIP for sure, since you cannot count on aliens missing you. But I find that completely fair.
Tac1
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Tac1 »

Honestly, my problem is that massive difference between hits given vs hits taken. When I actually do hit, I usually do alright. I seem to have bad luck with rolling 3s on tier-1 weapons, rarely seeing that nice 5 or a crit, but it's sufficient at least. The problem is rolling on a 92% for the fifth time and seeing 'MISS', while the Advent trooper I've flashed, suppressed, red fogged at 1 health manages to score a 2% to hit on a target in high-cover for full damage, for the sixth time in one mission.

I tried Gatecrasher again and it was a pathetic flop. First pod wiped in an ambush, overwatch did well. Second pod bulldozed us hopelessly. Even with flashbangs, high ground, and low cover, didn't matter. 5%, 8%, 2%, and 12% shots, they scored them all. By the end of the mission, my eight rookies are down to five and only two aren't cripplingly injured.

Hell, even Not-Created-Equally hamstrung me. Half my squad had less than 60 aim and virtually no mobility. Nearly everyone had jacked up health, instead. So I wound up with incredibly slow troops that can't hit anything.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Hey I had same thing. Cost me six new rookies. I have Perfect information for Long War - separate mod. So I have correct graze band/hit/crit chance. 70% is low chance for hit/crit but it should graze at least. 48% is always lucky shoot you should miss. Don't take shoots lower than 60% (they will often miss). 98% can't miss (I could be wrong) but you can graze.

Flashbang is not that good they will hit you just to kill one of your rookies. It seems that first shoot against you will cost your rookie. Like it is hard coded. First few missions will cost you a rookie at least. 1HP Advent officer can kill your rookie despite red fog/flashbang/Supresion / save scumming .

Welcome to the club
The Preacher
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Only on you tube 40% hit will hit. I m now on the bomb run - they actually can hit.
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Doctor Sticks
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Doctor Sticks »

Tac1 wrote:Honestly, my problem is that massive difference between hits given vs hits taken. When I actually do hit, I usually do alright. I seem to have bad luck with rolling 3s on tier-1 weapons, rarely seeing that nice 5 or a crit, but it's sufficient at least. The problem is rolling on a 92% for the fifth time and seeing 'MISS', while the Advent trooper I've flashed, suppressed, red fogged at 1 health manages to score a 2% to hit on a target in high-cover for full damage, for the sixth time in one mission.

I tried Gatecrasher again and it was a pathetic flop. First pod wiped in an ambush, overwatch did well. Second pod bulldozed us hopelessly. Even with flashbangs, high ground, and low cover, didn't matter. 5%, 8%, 2%, and 12% shots, they scored them all. By the end of the mission, my eight rookies are down to five and only two aren't cripplingly injured.
Reliable Damage fixes all this completely, while still leaving some room for RNG (i.e. whether you hit for 6 or 4, but at least you WILL HIT). You might argue that it makes the game easier (which it does, as does anything that reduces RNG), but it should at least allow you to have a normal game.
Phaseless
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Phaseless »

I'm sorry that you have this problem. I know how annoying this is from the base game where high cover was VERY unreliable. And I've also had moments where very high % hit chances missed, but they were few nd far in between, as they should be. Gives you a big OMG moment because you really needed that kill :D
Since LW2, I no longer have this issue of getting hit all the time and never hitting myself. So this seems really strange to me. I hope you find the culprit, because this just seems wrong.
Tac1
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Tac1 »

I did honestly laugh at the advent sentry who managed to survive the combined shots of 2 rangers double-firing and a gunner, then to land a 2% to hit and crit on 5% to one-shot my assault. Really helps reaffirm my belief that the lottery is a waste of money.
dethraker
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by dethraker »

Phaseless wrote:I'm sorry that you have this problem. I know how annoying this is from the base game where high cover was VERY unreliable. And I've also had moments where very high % hit chances missed, but they were few nd far in between, as they should be. Gives you a big OMG moment because you really needed that kill :D
Since LW2, I no longer have this issue of getting hit all the time and never hitting myself. So this seems really strange to me. I hope you find the culprit, because this just seems wrong.
Yea I had the exact opposite occur. Vanilla had a few instances where RNG was punishing but in LW2 it happened quite a bit more, especially once you add in the additional RNG face slap called yellow alert lol.

@Tac1 you are not alone in LW2 RNG more or less cheating for the Advent/Aliens. I just always thought it was hardcoded since LW2 is basically a hardcore mod. Interesting to know it's supposed to feel fair.
Phaseless
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Phaseless »

Yellow alert is a beast of it's own, I was strictly speaking about odd hit chances in full cover and missing hits that should have almost 100% hit the target.
But yeah I'm no friend of it. It killed my sniper officer who had two out of a pod of three shoot him out of cover on yellow alert (technically he was in full cover, just in the wrong direction ^^). Remembered me what tears taste like.
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johnnylump
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by johnnylump »

dethraker wrote:@Tac1 you are not alone in LW2 RNG more or less cheating for the Advent/Aliens. I just always thought it was hardcoded since LW2 is basically a hardcore mod. Interesting to know it's supposed to feel fair.
Barring some kind of crazy bug that thousands and thousands of players have not identified, there is NO RNG / to-hit "cheating" on behalf of the aliens that we put in Long War 2. That's not how we do things, so please don't make statements like that without providing some evidence. To properly test the RNG you need to record 300+ shots and outcomes.
Tac1
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Tac1 »

I don't believe the AI cheats. I've never had good luck in life. In D&D I'd frequently roll low, failing even easy DCs. In WoW, I'd rarely see loot, because I'd roll terribly in dungeons. And in XCOM, I lose men left and right because a 5% chance to be hit is still too high to risk.
dethraker
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by dethraker »

johnnylump wrote:
dethraker wrote:@Tac1 you are not alone in LW2 RNG more or less cheating for the Advent/Aliens. I just always thought it was hardcoded since LW2 is basically a hardcore mod. Interesting to know it's supposed to feel fair.
Barring some kind of crazy bug that thousands and thousands of players have not identified, there is NO RNG / to-hit "cheating" on behalf of the aliens that we put in Long War 2. That's not how we do things, so please don't make statements like that without providing some evidence. To properly test the RNG you need to record 300+ shots and outcomes.
I stated clearly that I just thought that it was coded in and that it's interesting to know it's not and I just had really bad luck. I made no statement saying that's how it was so there's really no evidence necessary.
sarge945
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by sarge945 »

Grenades will never let you down.

I generally use either grenades or a technical when RNG decides to mess with me.
dethraker
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by dethraker »

Phaseless wrote:Yellow alert is a beast of it's own, I was strictly speaking about odd hit chances in full cover and missing hits that should have almost 100% hit the target.
But yeah I'm no friend of it. It killed my sniper officer who had two out of a pod of three shoot him out of cover on yellow alert (technically he was in full cover, just in the wrong direction ^^). Remembered me what tears taste like.
Lol, that was literally every experience I ever had with yellow alert. If they couldn't trigger, move to flank, then shoot they didn't get that free shot. When they were able to move to flank on scramble they would always one shot crit one of my soldiers. Literally the worst mechanic I've ever encountered but many people like it. LW2 may sadly just not be for me.
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8wayz
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by 8wayz »

What you are seeing is just pure RNG. In the original Xcom 2 there are safety checks built in to ensure that you will get a break if you could not hit for a few shots and be spared a shot when you had already been hit (depending on the difficulty setting of course).

Long War 1 and 2 remove all safety nets and especially Long War 2 adds the graze band which makes you see a lot more hits and critical hits on your soldiers than you should, due to the buffed stats of your adversaries. The argument that it works both ways does not take into account the sheer numbers and stats of the pods you have against you - the aliens clearly benefit more from the graze band than you ever will.

My advise is just remove the graze band (reduce it to 0) and see how it goes.
Phaseless
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Phaseless »

8wayz wrote:What you are seeing is just pure RNG. In the original Xcom 2 there are safety checks built in to ensure that you will get a break if you could not hit for a few shots and be spared a shot when you had already been hit (depending on the difficulty setting of course).

Long War 1 and 2 remove all safety nets and especially Long War 2 adds the graze band which makes you see a lot more hits and critical hits on your soldiers than you should, due to the buffed stats of your adversaries. The argument that it works both ways does not take into account the sheer numbers and stats of the pods you have against you - the aliens clearly benefit more from the graze band than you ever will.

My advise is just remove the graze band (reduce it to 0) and see how it goes.
I think it depends strongly on difficulty in LW2. It might be that graze band makes lower difficulties easier (because your pods tend to be less big and you often outnumber Aliens and hit more often) while it makes harder difficulties harder, because you're outnumbered more often.

But in General, I feel like graze band reduces RNG. Why? Because hits in General are more likely. You have to anticipate taking Little amounts of damage because of grazes. Ablative stuff lets you take some hits without consequence, and even beyong that, you often take minor damage which you can heal or at least survive. Without graze band, soldiers would die more often, especially to single shots because Overall damage will be higher per shot.

At first I disliked the idea of graze band but now I Support it. It also feels more real because in reality, many shots miss or debilitate a target. Rightout kills are way too common in media. I recommend watching lone survivor, a horrifying Afghanistan war movie that Shows you how much punishment a trained human Body can take before it shuts down.

Interesting side fact: Soldiers often miss on purpose because even with Training they don't want to kill. This effect will be reduced I think vs ugly Aliens who want to enslave your race ;)
Frei_Ninjesus
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Frei_Ninjesus »

It also feels more real because in reality, many shots miss or debilitate a target. Rightout kills are way too common in media.
See, I always disable graze because I consider that getting shot and not killed outright must already be a either a graze or a non-fatal wound(RP wise of course). I mean, let's say your rookie has 5 hp and gets hit by a Mag rifle from an officer for 3 dmg. So, he got hit and didn't die. That sounds more like a graze than a kill shot to me. Of course, this reasoning is more from an immersive point of view for me, I understand that the graze mechanic serves a different purpose when it comes to gameplay.
Phaseless
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Phaseless »

Frei_Ninjesus wrote:
It also feels more real because in reality, many shots miss or debilitate a target. Rightout kills are way too common in media.
See, I always disable graze because I consider that getting shot and not killed outright must already be a either a graze or a non-fatal wound(RP wise of course). I mean, let's say your rookie has 5 hp and gets hit by a Mag rifle from an officer for 3 dmg. So, he got hit and didn't die. That sounds more like a graze than a kill shot to me. Of course, this reasoning is more from an immersive point of view for me, I understand that the graze mechanic serves a different purpose when it comes to gameplay.
Getting hit and not immediately dying does not mean it was automatically just a surface wound. Part of the police problem is that you can shoot a target several times in the torso and it will still come at you because adrenaline keeps it going and keeps pain at bay. You might very well die later though due to blood loss and internal damage. Translated into the game, that means that a bleed mechanic would make sense, similar to what poison is now, which you get everytime you receive damage of more than, say, 33% of your total HP. Because only starting to bleed out when you lose consciousness makes no sense at all, RP wise.

But let's be real, this is a tactical game first and foremost so 100% realism surely is not the goal here and balanced/interesting gameplay is more important than that. A bleeding mechanic would require serious reconstruction of gear, medkit usage and so on.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

1 HP red fogged Advent can shoot like crazy.
It is sometimes funny to see 17% chance to hit actually hit more than yours 50-60% chance full squad fire.

Warning , warning dead Advent can shoot better than you. :lol: :lol:

Max red fog penalty is 30 . Aim
Last edited by SonnyWiFiHr on Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TrainInVain
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by TrainInVain »

There was a post here I can't find now that said in Vanilla range modifiers were removed for advent. Not sure if thats the case but I figured thats why an advent gunner will blow your troops away from across the map, but once you mind control him, that gunner can't hit the side of a barn.
Tac1
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Re: Crippling RNG, no agency.

Post by Tac1 »

Tried to start a new campaign, try my luck again. Gatecrasher, squad spawns inside a mess of civilians and are Revealed on turn 1. I'm going to find a better game to play for a while.

-

Gave it one last try. 2 pods of 4, killed 5 in the initial ambush. 23%, 12%, 38%, and 19% shots, Advent makes them all. 2 men dead, 3 panic. I can't even kill people with grenades, because '2-5' damage means 'only 2'.
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