LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Jacke
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LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

I play LW2 with Grimy's Moral Mod.

I'm discovering even in early April a strong synergy when having the combined challenge of Infiltration while XCOM soldiers lose Willpower to combat fatigue. Having to send troops out again when they haven't recovered from their last battle. And when the whole barracks is out, getting another Op that will almost certainly either force dropping a planned Op to run thee new one. Or sending out more fatigued troops right after they return.

See below past the spoiler for more on my challenge for 2035 April 9.

Grimy's doesn't work perfectly. Its afflictions don't appear. Has to be used from campaign start to have the vital Bar/Memorial R&R slots.

But getting shot at erodes Willpower, both XCOM and ADVENT. Even just a miss. Grazes, hits, and crits do greater Willpower damage. Crits also affect the other soldiers in the squad.

Soldiers will break and hunker. Low Willpower troops are easy targets for Sectoid's Mindspin.

In XCOM's favour, ADVENT is facing the same loss-of-Willpower from combat. And Hynography which halves ADVENT's Willpower is now a fantastic hack bonus.

As Grimy says, "We Darkest Dungeon Now." :)

Promotions restore Willpower to max immediately. That helps for awhile. But even going from LCpl to Cpl takes more than one mission. So troops will need time to rest back up. Or face going out again tired.

Have to remember to manually remove soldiers from the Bar R&R slots (where they recover Willpower faster) when they deploy to infiltrate.

Some config adjustment I do: turn off bonus experience and add more GTS upgrades to unlock extra Bar slots. As the campaign advances, weary soldiers will need more R&R to regain lost Willpower faster.
Spoiler: show
in XComGrimyMorale.ini 2 edits.

Turn off Post Mission XP.

Code: Select all

; PostMissionXP is the number of wetworks kills awarded at the end of a mission
; Wetworks kills are, in vanilla, worth 25% of a real kill
; This number is then multiplied by a soldier's willpower percentage and rounded down
; Bonus Mission XP = floor(PostMissionXP * WetWorksMult * Willpower%)
PostMissionXP = 0 ; 16
Add LW2 specific GTS Bar unlocks, so the original 4 slots will grow to 8.

Code: Select all

; these GTS unlocks will now add extra R&R slots
+GTSBarUnlocks=SquadSizeIUnlock
+GTSBarUnlocks=SquadSizeIIUnlock
;
; added GTS unlocks for LW2, 2 will add a slot in stock XCOM 2 as well, so both will have 8 max
+GTSBarUnlocks=VengeanceUnlock
+GTSBarUnlocks=StayWithMeUnlock
+GTSBarUnlocks=Infiltration1Unlock
+GTSBarUnlocks=Infiltration2Unlock
Putting infiltration together with fatigue makes for an interesting campaign.

Consider my LW2 1.5 Legendary (heavily modded) campaign. 2035 April 9.

I have a barracks of 25 soldiers. 2 Technicals are Haven Advisors. The other 23 troops are in 4 squads inflitrating 4 GOps. Because I had to send everyone out, 3 soldiers have less-than-max moral (43/51, 43/51, 30/39).

And then a 5th GOps comes up. It's a Very Light recover item from vehicle, find a lead, reward 22 Intel and Liberation Chain. Expires in 7d 17h.

Damn. 1st of the current 4 GOps will launch in 16 hours. 5 soldiers on a Very Light hack a workstation in a facility, reward 24 Intel. Hopefully will go Extremely Light at deadline.

And then those 5 have to come back unharmed. Could swap with the 2 Technicals on Haven duty and send out another 5 after the 5th GOps. Of course, if one of the weary troops "relaxing" on Haven Duty gets a Rendezvous.... Or there's wounds (don't even have Field Surgeon on the Specialist yet).

Or do I cancel one of the 4 current GOps? Decisions, decisions.

Fatigue means all soldiers will have to have down time beyond wound recovery. Infiltration means a battle isn't just a moment in the strategic campaign but takes time, has to be planned. And when other things come up, maybe that commitment to battle has to be cancelled for others.

I can't see making such a challenging campaign with just one of infiltration or fatigue. Infiltration-only is close, but unwounded soldiers can be send out again immediately. That doesn't feel right. Fatigue-only is a simpler campaign to manage as the soldiers form a pool that a squad gets formed from and sent out to immediately resolve a tactical battle. Wounds disqualify soldiers except for Avenger Defense. Fatigue makes soldier less reliable and eventually unable to effectively deploy.

But together infiltration and fatigue really puts the player in the place of the XCOM Commander, directing the prosecution of Earth's insurgency against ADVENT. Actions need planning and don't happen overnight. And using troops wears them out, even if they escape being wounded.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Nice way to prevent 50% infiltration.
Choke point is downside. ( Whole barracks at breaking point. No new mission.) Solution - Combat drugs PCS usable once per month or restoring will in mission with medicine/alcohol ability ?
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Jacke
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

SonnyWiFiHr wrote:Nice way to prevent 50% infiltration.
Oh, indeed. Just the Willpower erosion in a long battle could cause troops to break and turn an exercise in farming into "buying the farm". :)
SonnyWiFiHr wrote:Choke point is downside. ( Whole barracks at breaking point. No new mission.) Solution - Combat drugs PCS usable once per month or restoring will in mission with medicine/alcohol ability ?
If the player could hang on with minimal missions, a demoralized barracks could recover.

Soldiers with less that full Willpower will always slowly recover it. It just happens faster in the Bar R&R slots. Since Grimy's was prior to LW2 coming out, troops still recovers Willpower as they are infiltrating their next mission. Not really significant I think.

I'll have to keep testing it to see what happens as I go through a campaign. It won't be the full package like in Darkest Dungeon without afflictions, which currently haven't been seen to work. But the breakdown of XCOM and ADVENT troops is much more common. Can really change the tempo of a battle. Right now, happening a bit less as troops level and get more Willpower. But if they can't keep on top of more Willpower recovery out-of-combat than Willpower lose in-combat, things could go all pear-shaped. :)
archangel
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by archangel »

Sounds like an irritating mod that makes fun parts (longer battles) of LW2 not fun anymore. If I want a game that forces me to kill enemies in one turn instead of delay them with flashbangs and smokes I can play WotC instead.
cryptc
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by cryptc »

archangel wrote:Sounds like an irritating mod that makes fun parts (longer battles) of LW2 not fun anymore. If I want a game that forces me to kill enemies in one turn instead of delay them with flashbangs and smokes I can play WotC instead.
I think there's a cap how much fatigue you can gain on a mission, but I agree with your sentiment.

I'm more worried about uneven fatigue than anything in LWotC though, since when you build squads, and then half the squad is ready to go and the rest have 5 days fatigue left, forcing you to either send half a squad + subs, or take the hit of sending fatigued soldiers...
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Bigger barracks. And something consumable for temporary quick recovery.
Will stat in battle in my opinion is more important than any other.
Best soldier is usually most endurable one.
If LW team want to implement something more realistic. Will is first stat to go - it represent moral factor ,determination , hate and iron will.

I use for this purpose realistic panic .
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Jacke
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

archangel wrote:Sounds like an irritating mod that makes fun parts (longer battles) of LW2 not fun anymore. If I want a game that forces me to kill enemies in one turn instead of delay them with flashbangs and smokes I can play WotC instead.
Grimy's Moral Mod does have soldiers lose a little bit of Willpower just for being in a mission. That appears to be low enough that it would even recover just in the time to infiltrate on another mission. But the biggest source of Willpower loss is being shot at, with more loss the graver the results, and criticals causing Willpower loss to the whole Squad.

So it's just like the rest of XCOM. The First Rule of XCOM Club is don't get hit. The Second Rule of XCOM Club is don't get hit. The Third Rule (the important one here) of XCOM Club is don't even get shot at. Don't get shot at and there's no Willpower loss. The Willpower loss is lesser if more shots miss.
Sir_Dr_D
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Sir_Dr_D »

Sounds interesting. Right now the will stat doesn't seem to be of much use. Sounds like what is described could use some rebalancing, but it sounds like a good idea. And some of the perks should help reduce will loss.
Jacke
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Sounds interesting. Right now the will stat doesn't seem to be of much use. Sounds like what is described could use some rebalancing, but it sounds like a good idea. And some of the perks should help reduce will loss.
Just reading the config file it's kind of tricky to figure out the exact rates of battle damage and recovery (from XCOM getting critical hits on ADVENT). I'll have to compare them to losses in a battle to be sure.

Currently, the Mindshield is set to reduce 25% of Willpower damage. I'll have to test that when I get it in my game.
deducter
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by deducter »

A Darkest Dungeon stress system would be amazing. The key is that soldiers should also have a chance to become virtuous. Heroism is forged in the crucible of combat.
Jacke
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

deducter wrote:A Darkest Dungeon stress system would be amazing. The key is that soldiers should also have a chance to become virtuous. Heroism is forged in the crucible of combat.
Damn right!

It is what Grimy was aiming for. There's reference to two negative afflictions in the Steam Workshop page, Paranoid and Hopeless. There's more in the config file, some of it marked as not yet completed. Don't know if the two afflictions ever worked in stock XCOM 2. They haven't showed up in my LW2 play.

But just having stressed troops break, even for a short time, has a big impact on gameplay. They hunker and are useless. Without Revival Protocol, they're going to stay like that for 2 turns (I think). Their Willpower is low and open to Sectoid's Mindspin. Even when they recover in that battle, Willpower is still minimal. That could be death.

I've had two real bad missions; not as bad as they could have been, as there were no KIAs, just a lot of grave WIAs. They illustrate how important the Specialist Perk Revival Protocol is. And how Grimy's implementing Willpower loss in combat changes the game.

The two battles came mid April with another in between, with most troops LCpl and Cpl with base gear.
Spoiler: show
The first was a 3-VIP jailbreak. Had sent a Specialist, Shinobi, Assault, Grenadier, and Rookie. Squad was spread out too much. Specialist and Grenadier were fighting some ADVENT on the side of the jail towards the distant evac. Caught some minor wounds but with falling back and overwatch followed by advancing were holding on and killing their targets. But while clearing the jail, the final activated pod on the far side of the jail (ADVENT Officer, Trooper, Drone) had just shot the Shinobi inside the jail, leaving him bleeding out.

The Shinobi was rescued by the Assault, the Rookie, and even a VIP. I have the mod Beatdown Skill and one of the three VIPs had Beatdown. So he went out and thumped the ADVENT Officer and kept him busy. And even lived though wounded. The Assault killed the Drone and the ADVENT Trooper and finished off the Officer. The Rookie came up and stabilized the Shinobi with his own medkit (thanks to the Stabilze Me! mod, others can use a soldier's own medkit to stabilize bleeding out, just like in the real world). The Rookie carried out the Shinobi until my Specialist could use Revival Protocol to get the Shinobi moving again. (Don't use Revival Protocol on a carried soldier, it bugs out. Put the soldier down first.)

The 3 VIPs and the now 1-HP Shinobi got out alright, but I was well into massive ADVENT reinforcements (big map with a distant evac). 4 troops to get out: the Speciailst, the Grenadier, the Assault, and the Rookie. The Specialist and the Grenadier were in the evac. The Rookie and Assault were a yellow move away. I overwatched the Specialist and the Grenadier to give the Rookie and the Assault a chance.

Killed some ADVENT. But ADVENT's last shots seriously wounded the Grenadier. And criticalled the Specialist and she was down and bleeding. And the Grenadier broke and panicked and hunkered down. The Rookie could get in the evac by a covered approach but couldn't reach the Specialist or Grenadier and live. It was up to the Assault. Every one had to get out NOW or the next round of *11* ADVENT direct firing would kill everyone.

Good thing it was an Assault with Lightning Reflexes (a must-pick Perk if there ever was one) or she would have died from the ADVENT overwatch shots. The Assault Run-and-Gunned, Lightning-Reflex-shrugged off the overwatch shots, and picked up the Specialist. And turns out a panicked hunkered soldier in an evac will still evac.

Second mission after that was Hack a Workstation on a Train. Had a Specialist, a Shinobi, an Assault, and a Gunner. 4-troop squads have to be handled well on missions. The mission in between these two was a 4-troop squad on free-VIP-from-vehicle and I lucked out and handled it well.

I didn't handle this one well. Snuck down the edge of the map and set up in a building by the window side of the train. The Specialist had to go out in the open to get into hacking range, with just cover to one side. Should have dropped smoke on him when he ran out. Could have even delayed a turn or two to do the hack right. Should have.

Specialist did the hack at max range (7 tiles). A Snek and two Sectoids in the train. From the left an ADVENT Officer, Engineer, and Drone. Eventually from the right a solo Drone later followed by an ADVENT Gunner, Trooper, and a 3rd Drone. At least I remembered to drop the evac on the top of the building right away.

Specialist took some hits and was quickly down and bleeding out. Time for everyone to step up and save the squad.

Assault threw a grenade at the train hitting all 3 aliens and started a fire. Shinobi killed the ADVENT Engineer while the Gunner and Assault got the Officer. Gunner killed the Drone (thank you, AP Rounds) and the Shinobi stabilized the Specialist with his own medkit (thank you again, Stabilize Me! mod).

And one of the Sectoids caught on fire. Sunshine was one of the lighter moments in a crappy battle. Before his fire was out, the Sectoid went into the fire *again*. He burned himself to death. :)

Assault took out the solo Drone from the right (thank you 2nd AP Round) but got tongue-pulled by the Snek. Snke regretted that as Gunner shot and broke the Assault free. Leaving her comfortably close (well, comfortable for the Assault's Shotgun :) ) to both the Snek and the unburnt Sectoid. Assault and Shinobi together killed both.

But there's still the ADVENT Gunner, Trooper, and 3rd Drone on the right. And reinforcements are coming. Dropped smoke on the Specialist (finally) and the Shinobi carried him out. Assault caught a hit through the ablative but the whole squad got out.
Grimy's was a factor in both battles. Only one soldier in the first battle broke, but the Specialist with Revival Protocol was down and couldn't deal with it. Lucky to get out with just 3 grave WIAs. In the second battle, lost the Specialist with Revival Protocol soon after going loud. If any troop had broke, with just 3 fighting, there would have been KIAs instead of just one light and one grave WIAs.

Seems I've got to work on my tactical employment of XCOM squads. Despite the pressure of timers and reinforcements that can get worse when activating before the target, really do need to fight ADVENT a pod at a time if possible. And avoid 4-troop squads on missions. It's asking for trouble.

I'm even thinking of recruiting 2nd Specialist Officers with Revival Protocol. Need them anyway for spares and eventually new Squads. Or putting Revival Protocol on my 2nd Overwatch/Medic Specialists. Even if that loses them Sentinel. Revival Protocol doesn't help if the only soldier with Revival Protocol goes down. For long missions, I definitely need two Specialists with Revival Protocol.
Psieye
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Psieye »

How would the following mid-game scenarios be affected by this mod?

1) 2-man stealth duo who never activate a pod while hacking an objective (harder in 1.3+ but not impossible)

2) 8-man squad where only 1 guy is ever fired upon (who subsequently is rotated out for another hapless guy wearing the expensive armour)

I'm assuming will loss only occurs when you get shot at.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Jacke
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

Grimy's Morale Mod was under development and certainly isn't necessarily tuned the best for stock XCOM 2 or for LW2. Some things can be done by adjusting the INI, but I think to get things right stuff in the code would have to be changed.
Psieye wrote:How would the following mid-game scenarios be affected by this mod? .... I'm assuming will loss only occurs when you get shot at.
Willpower loss also occurs once for the whole mission, -12. Those soldiers not on the mission also have Willpower recovery, +8. For those in the Bar R&R slots, they get Willpower recovery bases upon the amount of time that passes, +1 per full day.
Psieye wrote:1) 2-man stealth duo who never activate a pod while hacking an objective (harder in 1.3+ but not impossible)
They would only get the per-mission loss, 12 Willpower. Everyone else in the barracks (except those shaken--stock/LW2 effect--and currently with 0 max Willpower) would get 8 Willpower recovery.
Psieye wrote:2) 8-man squad where only 1 guy is ever fired upon (who subsequently is rotated out for another hapless guy wearing the expensive armour)
Everyone on the mission loses 12 Willpower. Everyone not on the mission gains 8 Willpower. Every time the tank is criticalled, everyone on the squad gets a Willpower loss. Every time someone on the squad criticals an enemy, there's a Willpower gain.

Right now in my game, it's May 4 and I've had 19 battles (including Gatecrasher). My barracks of 33 has 23 infiltrating, 3 training, 5 wounded recovering, and 2 Rookies waiting for a slot in the GTS. And the only Willpower reduction is the shaken wounded Technical with a max Willpower of 0 and that's a stock/LW2 effect. Even the other 4 wounded already have all their Willpower back. Between the Bar and getting 8 Willpower back everytime a soldier's not on a mission, there's no Willpower erosion.

While I think the Willpower loss in battle is close to right, the recovery rate outside of battle appears to be too high for the barracks and tempo of operations in LW2. Right now with about 2.0 to 2.5 missions per week, it's at least 16 to 20 willpower a week, with 7 more added if in an R&R slot. I will turn the 8 per mission "benched" down to 2 and see if Willpower erosion is at least noticeable. Will follow with more adjustment if needed.
Psieye
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Psieye »

Hmm, so it's got promising potential but hasn't been tuned for LW2. Given LW2 numbers and pre-existing micromanagement, I'd rather there were no R&R slots in the bar and everyone passively had that level of will regen. That's without accounting for the extra levers WotC added.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Jacke
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

Psieye wrote:Hmm, so it's got promising potential but hasn't been tuned for LW2. Given LW2 numbers and pre-existing micromanagement, I'd rather there were no R&R slots in the bar and everyone passively had that level of will regen. That's without accounting for the extra levers WotC added.
Well, the INI can be adjusted to start with no slots and the lines that name the GTS Tactics that add a slot could be commented out.

But I don't think it'll be possible without the Bar slots. Then there would only be the amount of Willpower recovery set in the INI for a mission when a soldier isn't on that mission, which defaults to 8 and I've metamodded to 2. At 8, I think soldiers would recover enough. At 2 I'm still testing, but I think the Bar is definitely needed then.

I just had a Retaliation I had to take near everyone on, including an Assault with 13 Willpower. Assault is going to be tough. Using Lightning Reflexes means they don't get wounds, but all those misses still erode Will. That 13 Willpower Assault broke on the mission. Got her back with a Revival Protocol. And she was promoted so she got all her Willpower back.
Psieye
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Psieye »

My apologies, I lack the time to fully type out a design proposal. I only gave a sliver of detail so of course it was applied to the status quo when it should have been added to a different context. But in short: I don't believe in letting soldiers recover will for not being on a mission (this can be gamed so badly in LW2) or in R&R slots (too much micro). All the numbers should then be balanced such that 6 day 5-man infiltrations have minimal impact from fatigue. Retals, HQs and stupidly under-infiltrated GOps would become the primary sources of fatigue. Mindshields would also need some thought.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Jacke
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

Psieye wrote:My apologies, I lack the time to fully type out a design proposal. I only gave a sliver of detail so of course it was applied to the status quo when it should have been added to a different context. But in short: I don't believe in letting soldiers recover will for not being on a mission (this can be gamed so badly in LW2) or in R&R slots (too much micro). All the numbers should then be balanced such that 6 day 5-man infiltrations have minimal impact from fatigue. Retals, HQs and stupidly under-infiltrated GOps would become the primary sources of fatigue. Mindshields would also need some thought.
Those sort of changes are beyond my ability to metamod into Grimy's Moral Mod. I can code with the best but I'd have to research a lot on how to set up and create and edit mods; don't have time right now for that.

As for Mindshields, the INI has them set to reduces 25% of incoming Willpower damage. Will test them out when I get them as I suspect they'll be a vital piece of kit.

And I think what Grimy did here can justified. The recovery from others going out on a mission is the soldiers back on the Avenger thinking "Damn, they're going back out in the bush. I've got to get it together and ready myself to do my share again." The Bar R&R slots are the limited resources under the Commander's control that help the worse off soldiers recover. As it's coded now, starts with 4 slots and with 4 GTS Tactics (I set them to Vengeance, Stay With Me, Tactical Infiltrations and Large Unit Infiltrations) another slot is unlocked.

I'm already facing sending out troops with under-max level Willpower, ones that were out on the previous mission a day before, had moral loss, and then had a Retaliation, so no time to recover Willpower. For example one of the Assaults I sent on the Retal was down to 13 Willpower from getting shot at clearing overwatches. Did that once during the Retal. But the Assault kept it together until wounded by ADVENT, then she broke. The Specialist brought her back with Revival Protocol. And from this mission, she got a promotion, so all Willpower restored. She's still out a week with wounds.

I work with what I have. Will test Grimy's Morale Mod further with my current INI edits.
Psieye
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Psieye »

Jacke wrote:Those sort of changes are beyond my ability to metamod into Grimy's Moral Mod.
Ah, I needed to prepend my previous post with "this is a theoretical proposal, not a mandate you do this work now". Now I know what customers feel like when talking to an overloaded software engineer.
Jacke wrote: And I think what Grimy did here can justified. The recovery from others going out on a mission is the soldiers back on the Avenger thinking "Damn, they're going back out in the bush. I've got to get it together and ready myself to do my share again." The Bar R&R slots are the limited resources under the Commander's control that help the worse off soldiers recover. As it's coded now, starts with 4 slots and with 4 GTS Tactics (I set them to Vengeance, Stay With Me, Tactical Infiltrations and Large Unit Infiltrations) another slot is unlocked.
Flavour vs Mechanics. Hypothetical Optimal Player. I've had this discussion a few times in other threads, somewhat sure I could start another round of the same debate here if I go into depth in this thread. In short: something that is justified by flavour but wrecks gameplay is not good for a game. Whether these features being currently discussed fall into that category is disputable.

Apologies for being terse, I'm juggling a lot in RL right now.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Jacke
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

Psieye wrote:
Jacke wrote:Those sort of changes are beyond my ability to metamod into Grimy's Moral Mod.
Ah, I needed to prepend my previous post with "this is a theoretical proposal, not a mandate you do this work now". Now I know what customers feel like when talking to an overloaded software engineer.
I've been on both sides of that conversation. I hope that I do best in both roles and help as much as possible. :)
Psieye wrote:Flavour vs Mechanics. Hypothetical Optimal Player. I've had this discussion a few times in other threads, somewhat sure I could start another round of the same debate here if I go into depth in this thread. In short: something that is justified by flavour but wrecks gameplay is not good for a game. Whether these features being currently discussed fall into that category is disputable.
I like to get the both the Flavour and gameplay right. Can be tricky to do that. But the verisimilitude, having what can be similar to the real world be similar to the real world, can be a massive bonus to the game.

For example, with something like WotC's perk tree (with changed appropriate costs and mechanisms to prevent similar-design Tank Mages taking over) and robojumper's lloadout screen, XCOM could have ONE soldier class, where soldiers aren't locked in but learn skills and are equipped for the missions. They specialise but are a bit more flexible. It wouldn't be as intensive as the original 1994 X-COM to learn and manage. And would approach the current system in playability while giving more power and verisimilitude to the player. But I'm in no position to even contempt writing such a mod. Though if others would.... :)

Psieye wrote:Apologies for being terse, I'm juggling a lot in RL right now.
"Be kind, for everyone is facing their own battles you know not of."

No problem dude. Appreciate you commenting.
dethraker
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by dethraker »

Just from an outsiders perspective it sounds like the per-mission not attended needs to be changed to only apply to the bar R&R slots and then have a low setting on per day recovery. That way the guys the commander has put "off duty" are the ones that are thinking, "Why am I sitting here when the rest of my brothers are risking their lives? I've got to get it together."

The others would really just be getting themselves ready cause they know it's their turn soon. Makes sense both lore-wise and mechanic wise imo.
Jacke
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

dethraker wrote:Just from an outsiders perspective it sounds like the per-mission not attended needs to be changed to only apply to the bar R&R slots and then have a low setting on per day recovery. That way the guys the commander has put "off duty" are the ones that are thinking, "Why am I sitting here when the rest of my brothers are risking their lives? I've got to get it together."

The others would really just be getting themselves ready cause they know it's their turn soon. Makes sense both lore-wise and mechanic wise imo.
As I've said before, this is a mod I'm metamodding. I can only tune the knobs it provides, not change or create new ones. It is good to look at it to figure what knobs a future version should have. But I'd like to be clear what can be done with Grimy's Moral Mod as it is now as opposed to a future mod incorporating Infiltration and Fatigue.

The Bar slots are driving by a clock rate of Willpower recovery, defaults to 1 per ingame day. I'm leaving that unchanged for now.

The setting for recovery when a mission is resolved and the soldier isn't on it (ie. "benched") defaults to 8 Willpower. I think that's too high and I've turned it down to 2. That may be too low.

As well, there's the Willpower loss for being on a mission. That defaults to 12 and is currently unchanged.

The rate of recovery of a soldier is based upon how many missions they will be deployed on. Without considering the Bar or in-battle Willpower losses, it's down to the number of squads currently running. Right now in early May I have 4 squads and am verging on getting 5 going.

However, with a loss of 12 per mission on and a recovery of 2 per mission benched, that needs 7 squads running to stay steady state. I don't have enough soldiers even with all healed and out of training to run 7 squads of 5 or more. The Bar is definitely needed here or XCOM will collapse from loss of Willpower.

It may not be sustainable at those levels even with the Bar. Willpower lost to getting shot needs to be recovered too. 2 may be too low for recovery while benched. At 4, a steady state would be had at 4 squads and at 5 squads would gain a bit. Maybe the Bar would be enough to recover from combat Willpower losses at that level.

Another problem is a few key soldiers may go on more missions out of the squad cycle, or there's the quick reaction missions like Retaliations. Again something like the Bar is needed to heal the stress of the soldiers to keep them going in the regular cycle of missions.
dethraker
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by dethraker »

Ok, so you're trying to balance it as is, well to that I say good luck. I can't think off the top of my head any reason for extra recovery when not on a mission if they're most likely going to be prepping for one coming up. In LW2 you have to use almost all your soldiers so in my head only the standard recovery should apply unless there's some reason for that to change. Reasons being a perk that increases their recovery "some soldiers thrive in the field", them being forced into R&R due to psych eval, etc.

I don't imagine it will be difficult at all to add a dependency for the off-mission boost to require the soldier be in one of the bar slots but I understand if you're just trying to keep things very simple with only INI edits.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Quote:
As well, there's the Willpower loss for being on a mission. That defaults to 12 and is currently unchanged.

Lower it to 10. Try to find sweetspot around end of April . Right now judging by your experience 12 is to high. For testing purpose lower it to 8. If it is to easy go up. It is about - how combat experience can affect soldier ? I can say that jumping missions are not frontline missions and they are actually returning from fight to safe place. There is word for this kind of combat. Weekend Soldiers . Deployed solders must endure months of combat and weather and one tour is one year. If XCom is so easy to broke we need better soldiers / real ones.

Will should be tied to performance of solder but any mod is welcome if it can make Will useful.

You fight with will not with offense (Aim) you carry Ammo for offense (Aim) or bombs or glasses or Artillery. 100% to hit is 1.000 bullets in everyday war. To reduce that they use artillery and artillery kills more than 75% of everything (including children).
Will should be changed to endurance
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Jacke
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by Jacke »

The inspiration for Grimy's Moral Mod was the game Darkest Dungeon. In that game the player is like the Commander in XCOM, organizing missions of up to 4 adventurers from the player's company of adventurers. They go into horror-filled areas around the Town where the player's ancestor had his lands and mansion. The adventurers on those missions are stressed and tested by their experiences. When their stress hit 100%, they face a crisis where they will either break and gain a permanent mental affliction or rise to the challenge motivated by a virtue that would last for the rest of the mission.

There is only one expedition at a time. When the survivors have returned or all died, the player assigns members of the company to places in the Town's Tavern or Abbey to be relieved of their stress and regain their moral. There is also the Sanitorium, where quirks both good and bad and the negative mental afflictions are dealt with.

In Darkest Dungeon, it's hard to completely loss. Even with a company of raving broken troops and little outstanding funds, a few of them could be dismissed and a new group recruited from off the Stage Coach to go back in on available easier missions and try to do things better.

XCOM 2 is different from Darkest Dungeon. It is possible to lose. With a barracks full of raving broken troops, the player may not be able to recruit new soldiers. And even equiping some low rank soldiers or worse Rookies with the best gear on hand may have no chance in the zones contacted against the current forces of ADVENT.

In bringing a sliver of Darkest Dungeon via fatigue and Willpower breaking to XCOM 2 and LW2, it's important to add the right amount of challenge and risk of contributing to failure. It should neither be trivial to accommodate nor brutally certain to lead to barracks' Willpower collapse.

dethraker wrote:I can't think off the top of my head any reason for extra recovery when not on a mission if they're most likely going to be prepping for one coming up. In LW2 you have to use almost all your soldiers so in my head only the standard recovery should apply unless there's some reason for that to change.
Fatigue Perks are a possibility in some future LW or another mod. I think only having a standard Willpower recovery won't cut it.

Some troops are going to suffer more attacks and have more of their Willpower eroded. Without a special means to help them recover, those troops will break more often and will need to have several spares, to the point where I think it will warp the gameplay too much. Even with a special means of extra recovery, they will still likely need spares. Assaults and any other troops exposed more often to fire will need help. It's similar to having troops more likely to get shot and wounded, except careful play can reduce the rate and amount of health wounds suffered in battle. That can be done for Willpower damage too, but not as much. Assaults using Lightning Reflexes can't avoid taking Willpower damage.

SonnyWiFiHr wrote:Lower [ default Willpower loss per mission of 12 ] to 10. Try to find sweetspot around end of April . Right now judging by your experience 12 is to high. For testing purpose lower it to 8. If it is to easy go up. It is about - how combat experience can affect soldier ? I can say that jumping missions are not frontline missions and they are actually returning from fight to safe place. There is word for this kind of combat. Weekend Soldiers . Deployed solders must endure months of combat and weather and one tour is one year. If XCom is so easy to broke we need better soldiers / real ones. [ Comments about using explosives instead of uncertain shooting. ]
Can't always use explosives. They're limited in a battle and can lead to too many ADVENT activated at once. And XCOM is an insurgency, which damn far way from Weekend Soliders. Their life is hiding, preparing, and fighting. This is like World War 1: you serve at the front and get rotated slightly away, but you know you're going back. The only way out for these soldiers is victory or death.

My campaign is in May now and I don't want to stop and restart to try out a different April right now. I don't think 12 Willpower loss per mission active is too much. I am reducing the Willpower recovery per mission benched from the default 8 to 4 for testing. I'll see how they work out.
dethraker
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Re: LW2 with both Infiltration & Fatigue Right Now

Post by dethraker »

Jacke wrote:
dethraker wrote:I can't think off the top of my head any reason for extra recovery when not on a mission if they're most likely going to be prepping for one coming up. In LW2 you have to use almost all your soldiers so in my head only the standard recovery should apply unless there's some reason for that to change.
Fatigue Perks are a possibility in some future LW or another mod. I think only having a standard Willpower recovery won't cut it.

Some troops are going to suffer more attacks and have more of their Willpower eroded. Without a special means to help them recover, those troops will break more often and will need to have several spares, to the point where I think it will warp the gameplay too much. Even with a special means of extra recovery, they will still likely need spares. Assaults and any other troops exposed more often to fire will need help. It's similar to having troops more likely to get shot and wounded, except careful play can reduce the rate and amount of health wounds suffered in battle. That can be done for Willpower damage too, but not as much. Assaults using Lightning Reflexes can't avoid taking Willpower damage.
This still fails to provide a reason for extra boost on Willpower recovery just because the individual doesn't go on a mission, there's literally no good reason [lorewise] to give a boost just because you're not on a mission when it comes to a militaristic organization. Once again this is [A] outside certain character traits [perks] or if the individual is being forced to take it easy due to them showing extreme signs of stress.

For A - If someone were to design a character trait system or create perks that work as such [similar to the negative traits gained in WotC] then it would make sense that someone with the trait "Glory Seeker" OR "Adrenaline Junkie" might gain [or even lose] Willpower by not going on a mission. Otherwise it would be standard operations with no good reason to say that by not going on this mission those back at base are ALL somehow extremely motivated.

For B - When forced to take some R&R by command and being separated from the ones you're used to going into combat with it could definitely make you more motivated to prove that you're ready to get back out there so you can be with your group, or just so you don't look like a wuss.

I only mentioned my suggestions because you said you like to balance both(or if you didn't say it someone else did, kinda tired and don't feel like re-reading right now) lore and mechanics. It makes sense both ways the way I suggested without having to make up any off the wall reasons for justification, just my 2 cents [again]. :ugeek:
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