Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

sarge945
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by sarge945 »

Steelflame wrote:I'm not a fan of removing the faction classes either, and infact wanted to go all in on faction classes, as such that there wasn't just the 3 faction classes, but infact 6 faction classes (Shinobi moved to Reapers, Ranger to Skirmishers, and Psionics to Templars), as well as reworking the Technical class itself into a Spark class, and rework the Grenadier to have a salavaged Flamethrower as their primary weapon, with a few perk tweaks to support that. I'd even enjoy a 4th faction that has a new variant of the specialist (melee-stealth focused, with either a stealthy anti-robotics hacker path, or a melee skulljack-ish path, balanced accordingly), as well as the specialist class.

I'm absolutely fine with the idea of overlap between the faction and normal classes, and this actually makes each faction be known for a unique strength they bring to the Xcom group once you have recruited them (Reapers bring stealth, Skirmishers multi-shot action, Templars the Psionics branch of powers, and that hacker group... well hacking.)
Holy shit this is a good idea

It would help ease the feel of duplication as well. Shinobis already feel like reapers, and psionics feel like weaker warlocks. The ranger has the same core ability as the skirmisher (fire and move in any order or fire twice)

I'd merge grenadier and technical, rather than spark. I'd love sparks to get some love, but making them the explosives experts IMO is a bad thing

I'd rather merge grenadier and technical, giving them the choice of a grenade launcher, a rocket launcher or a flamethrower for their secondary
LordYanaek
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by LordYanaek »

JulianSkies wrote: I will be honest, you call it ridiculous and it probably is but... It feels like I can do the exact same thing with a stealth shinobi. Like, the only thing I need to do is take wider paths but otherwise I can do all the same things. Especially if I go full stealth. I'm not saying it isn't ridiculous, but it doesn't feel too different from what shinobis can already do. But I don't trust my own judgement there.
It's not too different from what a shinobi can do. It's just brain-dead easy to do with a Reaper when you have to be careful with a Shinobi. A Reaper can dash forward with close to 0 risk and you don't even have to pay attention to the enemy movements to predict where they will go as it's almost impossible to get blocked in cover like a Shinobi can be if you're careless. Of course paying attention to enemy patrol patterns doesn't have much sense in vanilla but it does in LW2 and is actually the only interesting mechanism in a stealth mission.
Psieye
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Psieye »

LordYanaek wrote:Of course paying attention to enemy patrol patterns doesn't have much sense in vanilla
My WotC Gatecrasher mission: "why are the 2 pods magically walking towards me and camping for me to break stealth?"

So hate how vanilla inactive pods don't react to frags exploding pretty much in front of their faces (but not actually hitting them). "Oh our fellow patrol just got blown up by mysterious explosions. Nah nothing we need to check."
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joefo
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by joefo »

The Reaper tree should be combined with the Sharpshooter tree so that non-heavy-artillery Sharpshooter builds actually became viable and interesting.

The holobot Sharpshooter build could actually become viable if "Shadow" (enter Shadow mode) were turned into a real ability, replacing Phantom. The concealed-holobot-sharpshooter build sucked for many reasons, but one big one was that as LW2 progresses and guardians/sentinels/scouts/commandos/gatekeepers have a dramatically increased detection radius, a concealed Sharpshooter becomes increasingly vulnerable to disastrous flanking.
Similarly the targeting boosts could be consolidated into, say, 2 abilities (eg, Rapid Targeting also comes with Independent Tracking). The Vektor Rifle could become a second optional Sharpshooter weapon which would automatically grant Snap Shot (which would be removed from the tree) but at heavy cost to damage as well as Squadsight range, and maybe a significantly lower probability of breaking Shadow. However, using it would significantly increase yellow alert Advent detection radius.

The lame and never really used "Snap Shot Sharpshooter" tree could be replaced by the harder hitting Reaper traits.

The Reaper-SS tree could also get Remote Start at around SSGT level, potentially.

The suggestions of combining Grenadiers and Technicals; and Psionics and Templars both make a lot of sense. Combining the Ranger/Skirmisher trees seems compelling too. The LW1.5 overwatch Ranger, while strong, is no stronger and way less versatile than the overwatch Specialist build. (Threat Assessment can even be used to give a sharpshooter a free Long Watch OW shot for example, and unchained reaction shots becomes more valuable than Rapid Reaction because in late game, so many alien units have Shadowstep or Lightning Reflexes and can break the RR chain.) xwynns' videos notwithstanding, the fast/close-combat Ranger is too weak to be a compelling build.

The hero classes' traits seem ripe, then, to be split amongst the current LW2 classes, in a way that enriches the lesser builds of lesser classes and does not lead to ridic OP.
LordYanaek
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by LordYanaek »

joefo wrote: The lame and never really used "Snap Shot Sharpshooter" tree could be replaced by the harder hitting Reaper traits.
I'm using that "never really used" tree a lot :!:
I'm using it both on real snapshoters (i had 2 in general ops squads and one in a combat heavy squad that also had 2 "nest" snipers) and i used several skills from that "lame" tree in some of my nest builds so please don't go presume that what you don't use is "lame" and "never really used"

Having something to allow "holobots" to be slightly more useful would be nice but not at the cost of removing the faction soldiers for me. A Reaper isn't just a Sharpshooter with stealth and a long coat, a Templar isn't a Psi Trooper and a Skirmisher isn't a Ranger with an ADVENT mask. They have large differences in mechanisms and story and i don't want to lose either.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

All hero classes should be transformed in to SPARKS. Only robots can perform like that.
Let's make some Terminators T-600, T-1000 , T-1001.
Real question is why aliens do not have Death Star or my favorite - Anti Air guns
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LordYanaek
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by LordYanaek »

SonnyWiFiHr wrote:Only robots can perform like that.
Robots, Batman, Jedis, high level D&D characters ... the list is pretty long :P
I'm sure the Gatekeeper has plenty of eyes under that armor.
Real question is why aliens do not have Death Star or my favorite - Anti Air guns
Nope, they have Anti air guns but Firebrand uses Protoss cloaking technology. Where do you think the Templars got their blades?

I suddenly have a horrible doubt, it's not Shadow cloaking technology is it :o , someone have to check with the Vorlons.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Why they do not use FLAK. It was used in WW2.
I like to discuss more about Terminators they just fit in to the description of Hero. Can we have Arnold S. one ?
With voice pack - "I'll be back/buck".
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Sparky79
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Sparky79 »

joefo wrote:The Reaper tree should be combined with the Sharpshooter tree so that non-heavy-artillery Sharpshooter builds actually became viable and interesting.
...
Ok, I didnt quote your whole post to save space, not because I didnt like it.

As I started to write this I was about to "shoot down" your idea but as I analysed things it kinda backfired on me. :D Had to re-write the post. :))

Ok, heres a "blueprint that could work (sorry if its not pretty and details are wrong)
sharpshooter / reaper hybrid: can equip sniper rifle (2 action to fire) and vektor rifle (equal to SMG in damage and +3 mobility, 1 action to fire, range like rifle? sniper rifle?)
---------------Sniper-------------------Assassin----------------Saboteur
SQD------Squadsight----------------Target definition-------Claymore
LCPR-----Death from above -------Shadow-----------------Remote start
CPR-----Damn good ground-------Silent killer--------------Shrapnel
SRG-----Precision shot-------------Center mass------------Units damaged by claymore take more damage
SSRG---Long watch?---------------Sting---------------------Holotargeting
TSRG---DeadEye-------------------SoulHarvest-------------Highlands
GSRG--Kubikuri---------------------Hunter Instinct---------Homing mine
MSRG--Double tap-----------------Serial---------------------Alpha Mike Foxtrot

So here it is, nest sniper is pretty much the same, Assassin is merger of Reapers shadow and Marksmanship with use of Snapshot talents for overlay (center mass is blood trail, hunter instinct is needle, serial is banish and its upgrade), and saboteur is some sort of mix between saboteur and holotargeting.
Have to level with ya, not sure about the saboteur. :D
Still not sure if the Reapers and Sharpshooters should be merged.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

SpecOps class ?
Sorry it looks like class from Stealth overhaul.
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