XCOM, LW and RNGesus

[LordYanaek]

So i'm in the process of finishing my first WotC campaign (commander) which means i went back to Vanilla (sort of) XCOM2 after 2 full LW2 campaigns (and a few messed up starts). With LW2 still fresh in my mind i could somewhat compare the impact of RNGesus in a LW2 game compared to a WotC one (which as far as i remember is pretty close to Vanilla XCOM2).

I have occasionally expressed concerns about the place of RNG in LW2, especially when it's proc chance on consumables like the fire grenade (i won't revive that discussion, it's over, let the uber fire grenade R.I.P.). Those concerns were never motivated by a disagreement on item balance, but rather by a dislike of RNG as a balancing mechanism. To me an overpowered item is not better balanced if it procs with a random chance, it's just OP when it procs and useless the rest of the time which i consider bad, or at least imperfect, design ... like those stupid repeaters in vanilla XCOM2

Yeah, the point of this thread is that after coming back to XCOM2 from LW2, i now realize how much Pavonis managed to mitigate the effect of the RNG in their mod compared to the base game, especially in the early part of the campaign when you can typically loose to bad luck in Vanilla XCOM2 but will loose to bad moves in LW2

• They removed some of the biggest offenders from the base game (repeaters, hair triggers)
• They gave us (somewhat) reliable ways to deal with most aliens immediately after Gatecrasher (several soldiers are pretty reliable to remove T1 right from squadie level). A reason why the new heroes seem OP to some players is that they are more reliable (Templar has 100% to hit, Reaper comes close with easy flanks, Skirmisher has good to-hit bonus on Justice) while actually their raw power is lower than regular soldiers with a basic Assault Rifle and becomes worse with higher tech, but in LW2 we already had Assaults and Shinobi for (almost) guaranteed hits, Sharpshooters for high chance to hit from range, Rangers for 2 shots increasing our overall chance to hit, Needle grenades for auto-hit that doesn't destroy loot. All of this makes the early game much less reliant on luck than it is in Vanilla XCOM2 - unless you go kaboom all the way.
• The often vilified Graze Band (along with the modified dodge/crit) is actually a nice tool to keep the RNG under control. In vanilla XCOM2, when ADVENT hits you in full cover, you're dead because it's almost always a crit. 10% chance to be hit might not look like a lot but 1/10 chance of being outright killed is not something to laugh at. In LW2 this becomes 20% chance to suffer some light wounds instead which is much better - sure they are more likely to hit you but you'll probably not loose the mission (and the squad) due to that single low probability hit.
• AVATAR project is much more regular and controllable in LW2. I know a number of players complain about Facility Leads requiring luck but they mostly require planning to detect (and some understanding of the activity) while vanilla XCOM2 AVATAR is totally random. I almost lost my current campaign in later May when the doom clock went full for the second time (after i destroyed the Blacksite) while i was scanning to contact the nearest region with a facility as a chosen sabotaged the Avenger, causing that scan time to double. I was down to 11 h when i finally made contact (doom countdown is now shorter the second time it starts). Now OTOH AVATAR is a complete non-issue because i regularly spawn Covert Ops to sabotage it (something i didn't see during the first months) : that is total RNG. AVATAR in LW2 takes time to start, allowing you to develop and becomes an issue when you should be able to handle it with no luck involved at all.

Rather lengthy post to say "thanks for mitigating the RNG"
I'll complain again next you'll add some proc chance of course but i'll try to remember how much LW2 improved over vanilla XCOM2, even when it comes to the place of the RNG, and i hope other players will also realize it because it's a critic i see a lot and one that's really unfounded if you compare them.

[Psieye]

The often vilified Graze Band (along with the modified dodge/crit) is actually a nice tool to keep the RNG under control. In vanilla XCOM2, when ADVENT hits you in full cover, you're dead because it's almost always a crit. 10% chance to be hit might not look like a lot but 1/10 chance of being outright killed is not something to laugh at. In LW2 this becomes 20% chance to suffer some light wounds instead which is much better - sure they are more likely to hit you but you'll probably not loose the mission (and the squad) due to that single low probability hit.

Missing a 95% shot to kill a Lost with 3 HP with a breakthrough Mag weapon (i.e. way over 6 min damage) - that's when I really wished the graze band was around.

[8wayz]

I am chimming in to offer some counter-points, if you will.

- Repeaters and hair triggers never really punished you in any way in terms of RNG. They only helped you if you had a good one (much like the Incendiary grenade right now in Long War 2).
- The way provided to deal with early challenges in Long War 2 have almost nothing to do with soldiers and a lot to do with items. Flashbangs are rather an universal item on any squad in Long War 2, while in the original they are really used since you can manage alien numbers easier. The early game in original Xcom 2 has actual scripted checks that make sure that the next reward you get is either a scientist or engineer depending from which you have less, while Long War 2 has no such checks and you could get 5 engineers in a row.
- The Graze band is something that makes up for the changed Stock if you will. While it does much more than the Stock (it can upgrade hits to critical hits) it just makes sure that there will be a lot more hits than misses. This, combined with the two or more-fold numbers of the aliens make sure that you will be hit by a lot more shots than compared to original Xcom 2. If anything, the Grazeband guarantees a more difficult game just by the sheer number of misses being upgraded to grazes. This irks a lot of players since they get hit behind high cover a lot (in their own experience).
- In original Xcom 2 you have a counter for when the next Facility will be built. Moreover, each facility is visible right from the moment it appears on the map. Compare that to no counter and needing facility leads (which are very, very hard to obtain and require a lot of RNG luck) in Long War 2. I actually prefer the original system, at least for allowing you to see the facility straight away.

Also one of the main design goals of Pavonis straight from Long War 1 was to introduce more RNG to nurture "emergent gameplay". I still remember with terror the 7-strong pod containing 6 Outsiders (that regenerated each turn) + 1 Sectoid commander.

That was pure RNG from back in the day, and a really bad one. Thankfully in Long War 2 pod composition is a lot better, due to lesser RNG.

[Phaseless]

I agree. I remember playing xcom 2 quite some time back and the game felt unfair so often.
In Long War 2, you will be OK most of the time if you handle the strategical layer well and makes safe moves in tactical. Sometimes you will go unlucky, but not because of something as unlikely and stupid as getting shot for critical damage behind full cover but because you let a rocket-launching unit do it's thing or because you activated a pod that flanks you or... whatever, usually the reason why it went bad could have been avoided with more knowledge, patience or, most important of all, vigilance and attentiveness.

In LW2, losses hurt no less because you feel more responsible for what happened, but it's alleviating that you know every single time what you learned from that fuckup, instead of having no idea how to avoid getting critically hit in high cover in the future.

I have to say. Pavonis makes me spend hundreds of hours with games I would have been done with after maybe 100 hours, without the mod.
Which is still also praise for firaxis. But pavonis tacks on the final finesse that will make the game last a lifetime.

[Dong101]

I would highly recommend any one new to decision making to play Xcom Ironman mode. It is a good simulation on risk taking, mitigation, and consequences.

Just do not spend all your time playing and forget to do your actual pay job.

[Phaseless]

I would highly recommend any one new to decision making to play Xcom Ironman mode. It is a good simulation on risk taking, mitigation, and consequences.

Just do not spend all your time playing and forget to do your actual pay job.

If I had xcom 2 on my work pc I would not work at all.
Say what boss? The resistance is really more important than your god damn sales, man!

[LordYanaek]

I am chimming in to offer some counter-points, if you will.

Agreed of course

Thanks for pointing out the starting Flashbang, another non RNG-dependent solution to early game troubles, I forgot this one
However even after you flashbanged the enemy, you'll still have to kill them one way or another and i found in my early WotC campaign i was reduced to taking ~50-60% shots a lot when LW2 would have offered other options. But yes, you're right that multiple items play a large role in LW2 but it doesn't go against my point at all. Those early Ceramic Platings for example are also great in making sure your guys won't fall to the first lucky shot ADVENT throws at you - another RNG mititgator.

Otherwise, you have valid points in your observations but i don't think it's incompatible with what i said. The Graze Band might cause you to get hit more often and put soldiers in the medbay : so plan ahead and try to have enough soldier. OTOH there's no way you can plan for those crits on Aid-protocoled soldiers behind full cover cascading into a squad-wipe because another guy panics and shoots a 3rd one (something they won't do in LW2, panic is also less random). It might make the game more difficult (i don't really think it's true, but maybe) but it's a difficulty you can plan for while Vanilla XCOM2 (with it's weird crit system) creates totally random "difficulty spikes" which can easily screw your campaign completely (if you're playing IM) when they occur early.

There is still a lot of RNG in LW2 of course. RNG is an integral part of XCOM. Just look at the fate of that mod which tried to removed RNG from combat, it was a really creative and smart idea but it really didn't got much success. However i feel like Pavonis have added a lot of manageable RNG (RNG which forces you to rethink your strategy/tactics) while removing bad RNG (RNG which forces you to restart your campaign/reload a save). LW2 RNG can give you troubles but overall there is less opportunity for total RNG campaign loss than in Vanilla XCOM2 - which is why i said "mitigating the RNG" and not "removing the RNG".

This is mostly true in the early game. Later in a Vanilla/WotC campaign you can reach a point where you just kill everything 100% on the turn they are revealed without any luck or tactic involved, which isn't, true in LW2. In a way you might fell like the RNG have a larger impact in LW2 but in realty it just stays relevant longer because you don't reach a point when you can just obliterate everything by "rolling your face on the keyboard" (this is an exaggeration of course).

Oh, and LW1 was a different beast.