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Icarus wrote:it isn't difficult to get at least two people in an area suppression.

You don't "get" them anywhere. Nothing in the game lets the player move them where they want*. Maybe your pods scamper differently, but the advent I encounter all stand exactly one tile too far apart**. Yeah, getting a gunner to tech sergeant and giving up "cool under pressure" fixes that, but my problem isn't whether the elite-level soldiers are on par with all the other gods of war. My problem is that they're a liability until then. The only thing they bring that I can't find somewhere else - area suppression- has no targets a large portion of the time.


*Except, y'know, mind control, in which case why am I suppressing them?
**If I knew beforehand that a fight would be entirely indoors, then I'd never leave the gunner at home. Three tile hallways/doorways are easy to cover.

joebill wrote:

Icarus wrote:it isn't difficult to get at least two people in an area suppression.

You don't "get" them anywhere. Nothing in the game lets the player move them where they want*. Maybe your pods scamper differently, but the advent I encounter all stand exactly one tile too far apart**.

Needs more enemy density and/or an Iron Curtain stealth opener. I wonder what happens if you roust a unit with really nerfed mobility (poison)...

My current campaign has focussed on mass snapshot snipers. Next campaign (in 1.5) I should see what I can do with suppression gunners on Commander.

joebill wrote:

Icarus wrote:it isn't difficult to get at least two people in an area suppression.

You don't "get" them anywhere. Nothing in the game lets the player move them where they want*. Maybe your pods scamper differently, but the advent I encounter all stand exactly one tile too far apart**.

I got that a lot when I was dealing with single pods. Which is when I need it the least. With multiple pods, I often got more than one, and I never take Danger Zone.

Bear in mind though that I didn't count the number of times or something. This is all as memory serves. I do remember that I was comnparatively light on Gunners on my last try (4 versus an average of 5-6 on everything else) and I decided to take more on my next playthrough, after seeing how well they performed.

I don't think anyone is questioning the usefulness of Gunners as a control option, in the long missions. The main problem (for me) is that in the current metagame the majority of the missions you'll play are GOps with a turn limitation, be it hard timers or soft timers (RNF), and that being the case, you're in a race to kill as many things as you can in the least amount of turns possible. Gunners fail at this compared to the other options you could be bringing (grenadiers, assaults, rangers...), and to top it off they cost you valuable infiltration time. So at least in my case, they sit on a haven on advisor duty until I either I get one of the long missions with large number of enemies, or I run out of people to send in missions.

Dwarfling wrote:Gunners fail at this compared to the other options you could be bringing (grenadiers, assaults, rangers...), and to top it off they cost you valuable infiltration time.

What? I thought all class-specific Infiltration penalties were gone. It seems so much more elegant to have classes not affect Infiltration (other than Shinobis being better at it, perhaps).

wobuffet wrote: What? I thought all class-specific Infiltration penalties were gone. It seems so much more elegant to have classes not affect Infiltration (other than Shinobis being better at it, perhaps).

You can see it in XComLW_InfiltrationSettings.ini. The penalities/bonuses aren't really tied to classes, but to equipment... which is tied to classes. Gunners and Grenadiers take infiltration hits on their special equipment (cannons and launchers). Grenadiers can mitigate this by taking an SMG, but Gunners have no such option. Gunners really need an extra slot for upgrades, since they have to have autoloaders, Xmags, and hairtriggers to use their base abilities, and really need a scope to use things like cyclic fire, chain shot, or rapid fire, and then on top of that, they gain the largest benefit from suppressors of any unit the game. That or the penalty should just be dropped. It makes sense narratively, but it's totally unjustified, mechanically.

BTW, shinobis aren't any better at infiltration than the base classes unless you take the stealth specific perks. They only have lower timers because they come with an SMG by default. Replace that with a rifle and they have the same infiltration as a ranger or assault.

Thanks for the info, Antifringe!

I suggest

• No class penalties for infiltration.
• Weapon mods are too plentiful, IMO. Make them 25% less likely to spawn, but cut down the max to 2 weapon mods per weapon, but +1 for Cannons and Plasma Weapons.
• Boost Iron Curtain somehow (bigger range and/or shorter cooldown).
• Replace Flush or Formidable (at CPL) with Steady Hands (If you did not move last turn, gain +10 Aim and +10 Critical chance). Thematically, Cannons should benefit from being held steady.

Antifringe wrote:

wobuffet wrote: What? I thought all class-specific Infiltration penalties were gone. It seems so much more elegant to have classes not affect Infiltration (other than Shinobis being better at it, perhaps).

You can see it in XComLW_InfiltrationSettings.ini. The penalities/bonuses aren't really tied to classes, but to equipment... which is tied to classes. Gunners and Grenadiers take infiltration hits on their special equipment (cannons and launchers). Grenadiers can mitigate this by taking an SMG, but Gunners have no such option. Gunners really need an extra slot for upgrades, since they have to have autoloaders, Xmags, and hairtriggers to use their base abilities, and really need a scope to use things like cyclic fire, chain shot, or rapid fire, and then on top of that, they gain the largest benefit from suppressors of any unit the game. That or the penalty should just be dropped. It makes sense narratively, but it's totally unjustified, mechanically.

BTW, shinobis aren't any better at infiltration than the base classes unless you take the stealth specific perks. They only have lower timers because they come with an SMG by default. Replace that with a rifle and they have the same infiltration as a ranger or assault.

I use stocks on Gunner shooters as well. You can steady and then use chain / cyclic fire. It is the most effective usage of stocks since you get the benefit for multiple shots out of a single steady.

The fact that they need literally all extra slot upgrades might be a nice way to boost them.

Making canon with 5 or 6 weapon upgrade slots (e.g. same as Brad's weapon) would be a nice boost to them. You won't be able to use many of them (due to cost of filling all slots) but the ones you field will be better.

wobuffet wrote:Thanks for the info, Antifringe!

I suggest

• No class penalties for infiltration.
• Weapon mods are too plentiful, IMO. Make them 25% less likely to spawn, but cut down the max to 2 weapon mods per weapon, but +1 for Cannons and Plasma Weapons.
• Boost Iron Curtain somehow (bigger range and/or shorter cooldown).
• Replace Flush or Formidable (at CPL) with Steady Hands (If you did not move last turn, gain +10 Aim and +10 Critical chance). Thematically, Cannons should benefit from being held steady.

I don't think steady hands would help them that much. They need to move and they are already to slow for most GOps missions. You can use a stock for a shooter gunner.

I think formidable is one of the best perks. I would not replace it with Steady Hands.

I would be cool if their steady weapon action could be modified to work until they move representing the use of a bi/tri-pod. It would give stocks a use besides snipers.

Thrombozyt wrote:I would be cool if their steady weapon action could be modified to work until they move representing the use of a bi/tri-pod. It would give stocks a use besides snipers.

I really like this idea, would be very thematic and set them apart. Gunners are immobile, but once setup they get powerful firing bonuses. Could even give them some sort of limited squad sight perk.

Reminds me of LMG gunners from LW1.

stefan3iii wrote:

Thrombozyt wrote:I would be cool if their steady weapon action could be modified to work until they move representing the use of a bi/tri-pod. It would give stocks a use besides snipers.

I really like this idea, would be very thematic and set them apart. Gunners are immobile, but once setup they get powerful firing bonuses. Could even give them some sort of limited squad sight perk.

Reminds me of LMG gunners from LW1.

Agreed

And stocks having a use beyond snipers is nice. They're definitely garbo for everyone else if we're being honest

(unless they boost rocket aim?)

So much gunner hate! Yeah, they're not often superstars, but with good aim they can dish out pretty good damage just with standard shots. And h.o.b. is serious business.

Maybe supression should scale with weapon tech? Supressed is a good debuff when alien aim is around 60, but is much less impressive when it's around 80.

Antifringe wrote:Maybe supression should scale with weapon tech? Supressed is a good debuff when alien aim is around 60, but is much less impressive when it's around 80.

My suggestion would be that suppression applies a % aim reduction. This way it would stay relevant end game and it would give the same effect as now on early game.

If you have a fixed -aim, then it will obviously lose it's power once the enemies have 100-105 aim (which I met on second year).

WanWhiteWolf wrote:My suggestion would be that suppression applies a % aim reduction.

Ah, this is great. It gives Gunners something unique to bring to the table, at least farther along in the game.

Something like "-25 Aim, or -33% Aim, whichever is greater" would work to make sure the Gunner is reasonably powerful throughout the campaign.

wobuffet wrote:

WanWhiteWolf wrote:My suggestion would be that suppression applies a % aim reduction.

Ah, this is great. It gives Gunners something unique to bring to the table, at least farther along in the game.

Something like "-25 Aim, or -33% Aim, whichever is greater" would work to make sure the Gunner is reasonably powerful throughout the campaign.

I think it's enough to put 33% aim penalty. Most units start with 75 aim (depends on difficulty) so you are taking 25 aim out. Late game, when units have 90 aim, you take 30 aim out.

Also, both cool under pressure and danger zone should be part of the Suppress Gunner path. I would rather pick danger zone than traverse on a full suppress gunner on MSGT.

Very much agree with most of the above

Suppression is a great mechanic and really helps the gameplay move past the 'alpha everything down' which we all know plagues the game - and it's just fun. Some of my favorite battles are when we get stuck in those entrenched positions and I'm having to throw down suppressions on problems I can't solve right away

Anything to make it more viable end game is a great thing.

You can't really make the Suppression playstyle viable unless you get some flex on the RNF schedules, otherwise slowing down the fights is shooting yourself in the foot if you're gonna be fighting +3 and then +4 enemies that you otherwise wouldn't by taking a class that's better at killing enemies, even worse if those RNF come while you're still fighting a pod.

Dwarfling wrote:You can't really make the Suppression playstyle viable unless you get some flex on the RNF schedules, otherwise slowing down the fights is shooting yourself in the foot if you're gonna be fighting +3 and then +4 enemies that you otherwise wouldn't by taking a class that's better at killing enemies, even worse if those RNF come while you're still fighting a pod.

I don't mean trying to use suppression every fight, I just mean being more viable in a pinch - RNFs and timers be damned