Let's talk Gunner

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WanWhiteWolf
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Let's talk Gunner

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

Gunner is weak.

Yes, a MSGT with a coil gun hits like a truck, but until you get there, he is for the most part a soldier in training. I saw in the change-log that he will get a half point of damage. I don't think that's going to make any difference.

The biggest issue I find with the gunner is his perk choices.

- Suppression build is only viable early game. Late game enemies get so many buffs, that suppression spec is simply not viable. Also, for the most part of the game, you play on timed missions for which you don't want 2 turns of suppressing enemies while you re-position. To seal the deal, you can always use a basic flashbang instead, that costs less AP, more reliable and can stun half of the targets once you hit sting.

- Hitter gunner can be really powerful end game. But his perk path is atrocious. Cyclic fire and chainshoot become useless perks once you unlock rapid fire and traverse. You can shoot 3 times, with better accuracy and less amo. It also lets you split the shots if you must. You can argue that you can take combat fitness or saturation instead, but then you end up with a weaker shooter build - which is what you want to achieve.

As for the early game:
- Amo consumption make the class basically un-usable without having an advance mag. A simply OW shot and you cannot use any of skills without reloading (e.g. hail / cover destruction ...etc). The cooldowns are big enough to warrant the perk costs. There is no need to take 5 amo for each perk you have.

- Flush has the same usage a Walk fire but comes with several penalties (less damage + enemies move). I think I encountered once a scenario where this was useful and I do play with OW specialists quite a lot.

- Where is the HALO ? The only thing that could make gunner useful in the early game is the halo, and that is not even in his perk list. If the mass suppression + halo combo is considered broken (which I would understand), simply remove the halo + suppression interaction. I would see a shredder + halo path.

- Where is the + damage to mechanical units?

I feel all the good perks from Gunner where removed and instead, not knowing what to do with him, some random - extremely situational - stuff were added (e.g. Iron Curtain).

Gunner is a mark of , heavy shooter, low aim, high damage , which combos between cc and taking a big target. Make it so then.
Dwarfling
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Dwarfling »

Why bother taking a shooter Gunner anways, Crit Ranger shoots as many times, earlier in the game, with better aim and crit bonuses, with a gun that always comes earlier in the tech progression. Shred? I can manage with HEAT, Shredstorm, Focus Fire, ammo, etc. Base damage? Not when you crit on 1/3 of the shots. Area Suppression? I guess.

Meanwhile you gotta take a soldier that shoots once for a long time, whose skills slow you down when you're up against timers, and that come with a hefty infiltration malus (which adds up if you bring Grenadiers and SPARKs).

I'm still using all my Gunners, mostly because I delay my GTS and just send all my rookies on missions on the early game and I can't afford soldiers that just sit around, but every time I got to send a Gunner out, I can only think "couldn't I send someone else?".
Psieye
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Psieye »

With the 1.3 change to tackle stealth, I find that not every timed mission is hostile to slow units. Namely, long timers with fixed evac and the RNG happens to give you an evac close to your starting location. On these 'fetch' type missions (Jailbreak and Smash & Grab especially) I'm happy for some of the squad to be slow as they don't need to travel all the way across the map. Hence I'm happy with "sole-visible tank" gunners supported by smoke-mule specs.

I also ponder on area suppression + roust but I've not tried this out (I don't do flamer Technicals unless Gatecrasher gives me one).

As for their perks... does XCOM 2 allow perks to get synergy buffs if you take something later down the tree? I could see Cyclic Fire getting buffed to 4 shots if you take Rapid Fire. I'm fine with the highly situational Iron Curtain (just as I am with Conc. Rocket) but Chain Shot/Cyclic Fire is uh... would rather have Deep Cover + Aim be part of their main tree. Say... do all 3 Cyclic Fire shots benefit from "next shot" buffs (like Steady Weapon)?
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

Dwarfling wrote:Why bother taking a shooter Gunner anways, Crit Ranger shoots as many times, earlier in the game, with better aim and crit bonuses, with a gun that always comes earlier in the tech progression. Shred? I can manage with HEAT, Shredstorm, Focus Fire, ammo, etc. Base damage? Not when you crit on 1/3 of the shots. Area Suppression? I guess.

Meanwhile you gotta take a soldier that shoots once for a long time, whose skills slow you down when you're up against timers, and that come with a hefty infiltration malus (which adds up if you bring Grenadiers and SPARKs).

I'm still using all my Gunners, mostly because I delay my GTS and just send all my rookies on missions on the early game and I can't afford soldiers that just sit around, but every time I got to send a Gunner out, I can only think "couldn't I send someone else?".
I am in the same situation. Gunners live in Heavens. They are quite good to for mini-retals since you can hail one enemy / area suppress everyone. And if you go combatives, it helps a lot if you are up against mutons or berserkers.

Easiest way is to look on LW1. Ranger is basically infantry renamed. Gunner still had a place in the squad, and that's mostly because the extra robotic damage and halo.

Imagine if you could get perks that give you, let's say, 20 aim vs Robotics only / +3 damage vs Robotics. They would be your MECH killers and they could still be useful in fast missions to take out drones - which usually take 2 shots for M2, M3s.

You do have a lot of answers vs biological units (e.g. flame, firegrenade, flashbangs, detroy their cover..etc). You don't really many options against heavy/superheavy MECs - aside from "everyone shoot that thing" or Kubikiri (which is particular strong because the spot for MECH killer is free).
Exquisitor
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Exquisitor »

Gunner should have shredder as an inherent ability. Because the gun is an automatic heavy weapon, it should have the ability to shoot more than once per turn or to set up some form of fire lane. A higher level ability could be something like the plasma blaster line of fire. The support abilities such as iron curtain seem rather weak because they don't do much damage.
llll BlackFlag
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by llll BlackFlag »

I think gunners are underpowered as well. When you generally have to kill or disable everything as fast as possible, a slow moving gunner with suppression just doesn't cut it. Rangers are much better shooters, and they have the sawed-off which is an awesome sidearm. All of my gunners are haven advisers this time in the campaign. Does anyone ever take gunners over rangers?
Dwarfling
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Dwarfling »

llll BlackFlag wrote:Does anyone ever take gunners over rangers?
Mostly in long missions without a time limit where you can bring +5 soldiers, but mostly when I just can't do any better, as in, I want my whole barracks to be busy and it's either take a Gunner as as 5th or go with 4. Hell I have an easier time finding a spot for a DFA Sharpshooter in a 8-turn hack mission than a Gunner. Even worse if said Gunner came with subpar aim and went Suppression build. Those mostly stick in havens until I deplete the barracks.

And I gotta prioritize the best auto-loaders on them :x
Sporadix
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Sporadix »

I've found gunners to be pretty good, though I have already reverted the LMG damage nerf to sort of shore up their awful early game. In my opinion one of their biggest strengths is that they can be built effectively for just about any stat distribution, which makes them pretty good as non-GTS promoted rookies or as purchased black market soldiers.

The ones with high aim and bio-tank defensive stats are my favorite, since they can pick up combatives and formidable right way, and as they level up they pick up Shredder and eventually Rapid Fire/Combat Fitness, at which point they become these super tanky killing machines. I think you want to avoid taking cooldown perks if you're building towards rapid fire, as you pretty much want to be rapid firing every single turn once you get it.

Gunners with low aim can grab Grazing Fire and take the multi-shot perks. Their output isn't amazing, but you can have them shoot at basically anything and not feel too bad about it, even enemies with tac sense in full cover. They could also go HoB/Demolition since aim is irrelevant to both skills.

With good aim and defensive stats they can be good as suppression spec, but I don't make too many of these. I find that in the late game you need to have lots of soldiers that can deal direct damage with bullets because consumables won't even come close to killing enemies anymore. Since I play on L/I, there's really no telling who's actually going to survive to late game.

They also play well with AWC perks, with Center Mass being a great pick up for Quick Study pistoliers. Covering Fire is also a nice one to see and plays pretty well with Suppression and the CUP/Kill Zone combo.
stefan3iii
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by stefan3iii »

I think at MSGT a gunner is stronger than a ranger, particularly with plasma weapons. A Beam Cannon does 10-15, vs the Plasma Rifles's 8-12. But of course, as everyone else has mentioned you're babysitting the gunner the entire game to get him there.
SouthpawHare
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by SouthpawHare »

I find that my gunners are largely defined by Hail of Bullets. It is an Always Pick choice for me, and it means that gunners have 1 or 2 100% shots each mission. Aside from that, they are below average at everything else in the mission, but not by too much, and these two clutch shots per mission usually make up for it.

In this way, they're not bad, just one-trick ponies. And they're kind of in the position that Snipers were waaaay back in Vanilla XCOM 1, where Squadsight was a must pick like 2 or 3 levels in, and Long War thought that was dumb and fixed it.
Icarus
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Icarus »

Huh. I didn't get very far yet, only about August, but I enjoy my Gunners a lot and I consider them very flexible. It doesn't take a lot to make Suppression effective, I basically just take CUP, slap on that OW-enhancing weapon mod and build the rest for shooting.

- No enemy in sight? OW with decent hit rate and damage.
- Big Nasty? Grazing Fire/Chain Shot, even after moving.
- Multiple Pods? Area Suppression.

And that last one isn't something a ranger gets. Yes, it's usually hard to suppress more than one or two goons, but when you can do it is when you need to do it oftentimes, i. e. multiple pods. I had some sweet 7-guys-suppression on ufo entrances, and a couple of 4-kill-scenarios when every suppressed enemy ran from high cover. And flashbang alone is insufficient control in my opinion, can't count the times a flashbanged officer nailed me. And you can suppress as often as you want. I find myself slapping suppression on top of my other cc just in case.
aedn
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by aedn »

Gunners are still exceptionally reliable in LW2. They lost the king of the hill damage since 1.2 but they have great utility, and are the 2nd best early game hard carry in the game next to technicals with suppression builds.

They have a super strong early game build via mayhem/lockdown , a solid tank build, that still allows them to reliably attack twice per turn later in the game, and an offensive cooldown build that is still good mid to late game, as well as contrary to belief are excellent counters to heavy armor/robotics with the proper build.

As far as hard counters to robotics, shredder in gunners is an exceptional perk one of the most underrated in the game, it allows you to stack situational damage ammo and still counter heavy armor for late game, works on your turn, and works on aliens turns with overwatch. Center mass - Shredder - RF and TF gives you consistent damage output, and hard counters mechs with bluescreen ammo, or hard counters any bio units with appropriate ammo as well.
RookieAutopsy
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by RookieAutopsy »

I find my Suppression Gunners with Mayhem do an enormous amount of damage, given how hard Cannons hit for by default. The base damage is like a Ranger's crit, even before you add on CUP. Also frequently on multiple targets if you can Area Suppress a choke point. My best Gunner also rolled Covering Fire and he's a monster.
gimrah
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by gimrah »

Gunners are not as crazy OP as they were but I still think they are decent. They do take a while to get going but are powerful once they do.

I rolled a high mobility, lowish aim gunner from gatecrasher and decided to go OW/suppression build. With a hair trigger, lockdown and eventually CuP that's a lot of aim boost to hitting things off suppression. I've had some success using the ability offensively, i.e. suppress one or more things and run someone in to flank those targets. You should have a very good chance to hit and mayhem is usually enough to kill it. Works well with MECs too as they like to run suppression (and can't flank or micro-missile unless they do) - slightly counterintuitive using suppression instead of a straight shot to kill but you have higher damage and probably higher hit chance.

I would recommend generally recommend considering gunner with a 17 mobility soldier as it has meant this guy is actually useful on GOps.

Shooty gunner takes a while to get going. I find chain shot is fine in combination with grazing and multishot shredding things is nice. Cyclic fire seems to have a hell of an aim penalty but is good vs MECs and beserkers. I tend to agree that rapid fire calls both into question but it is all the way down at GSGT. I want power perks earlier than that so I'd have taken chain and cyclic and therefore actually skip rapid fire in favour of rupture. I don't like flush either: I go formidable on non-OW gunners. Traverse and Sat fire and both really good options.

My last build is the utility gunner, with Combatives (probably), HoB, Demo, DZ, RF. Just lots of utility. Probably on a low aim soldier. His chances to hit will be poor with rapid fire but it's still a net improvement to expected damage if he does take a regular shot. In his case he's just suppressing for control not as an attack, so he takes DZ but not any other suppression perks.

On HQs I like to take a shooty gunner and a utility gunner if possible. Having 2 gunners helps you pin down a lot of enemies on a sustainable basis (unlike support grenadiers). I find it hard to flank in those battles (because activation risk), so demo and HoB are both really good. Also means OW build is less good for this kind of mission (although I do take demo on OW).
joebill
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by joebill »

On timed missions I'd rather just kill things with a walk-fire ranger than use a gunner to suppress.

On missions where I fight a swarm of enemies, I usually find that they still manage to stand one or two tiles too far apart for Area Suppression. If I just want to suppress one thing, I'll take a technical and suppress it while I close to burn range. Or I'll just use flashbangs, which have the same AOE except I can place it wherever, instead of centered on a unit.

I currently leave surplus snipers on haven duty, but I'm thinking gunners might be more the right idea for "stay home and guard the base".
Skyro
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Skyro »

I view gunners in the same camp as snipers - kings of untimed missions. They are a bit slow to start off but are incredibly powerful mid to late-game. My untimed mission squads (e.g. for troop columns/supply raids/HQ) each have 2 gunners in them. The only thing I agree with is the redundancy of the chain/cyclic with RF, and I find the shooty left side of the tree very weak currently compared to middle tree or suppression specs. Rupture is better on rangers who have the crit skills to take advantage of Rupture's crit bonus.

Also people seem to drastically underestimate Iron Curtain... it is an absolutely ridiculous stealth opener. It has huge range and AoE and combos with shredder so you can damage and shred an entire pod... it is like a super grenade. But most importantly... after the buff to the movement range penalty it inflicts, which affects pod scatter, you can often leave many enemies in a tight cluster completely exposed since they don't have the movement to get to the nearest cover object. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. This means you can blow up those 8-man rainbow pods very easily and very reliably. In fact I feel it is almost OP at this point. Even when I couldn't finish the pod I just throw a gas grenade and area suppress over them and now they have NEGATIVE movement and are basically immobilized in the open :lol:

Also on the note suppression gunners are ridiculous too. You don't have to combo it with Flush/Roust. You can use flanks (i.e. with ever vigilant OW specs), flanking with your stealthed shinobi, or sapper grenadier/tech rocket.
Swiftless
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Swiftless »

joebill wrote:On timed missions I'd rather just kill things with a walk-fire ranger than use a gunner to suppress.

On missions where I fight a swarm of enemies, I usually find that they still manage to stand one or two tiles too far apart for Area Suppression. If I just want to suppress one thing, I'll take a technical and suppress it while I close to burn range. Or I'll just use flashbangs, which have the same AOE except I can place it wherever, instead of centered on a unit.

I currently leave surplus snipers on haven duty, but I'm thinking gunners might be more the right idea for "stay home and guard the base".
Now there's an idea, a free-aiming Area Suppression.
stefan3iii
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by stefan3iii »

It's probably too much work, but I'd like to see gunners just take an entirely new niche, so that they aren't just slightly different Rangers. Ditch Rapid Fire and Traverse, and instead buff their cooldown based abilities. Make them more of a utility shooter class, that also has shots that hit in an AOE. With Rapid Fire and Traverse gone you could buff a lot of their other perks: Iron Curtain, Saturation (could be moved earlier in the tree), Hail, Demolition, Suppression etc.

Might need some entirely new perks to make this work, like say a line AE. Probably out of scope, but I can dream.
Dwarfling
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Dwarfling »

What I'd like is the Suppression effect to be stronger further down the skill tree. As in, effects of Suppression stay whether they run it or not, at like MSGT. Or some kind of Covering Fire for Area Suppression targets.
Jacke
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Jacke »

I too have been thinking that Gunners are unspectacular after the latest rounds of nerfs to their cooldowns. However I think right now they're better used by focusing on suppression and overwatch builds. I think I'll go with a build without the usual cooldown perks or the multishot ones before Rapid Fire. Skyro brought up Iron Curtain, which I'd thought about in the past. With Shredder combined with Iron Curtain and Area Suppression, they are the hit-a-lot-of-targets soldier rather than hit-a-target-hard soldier. I'd had good use out of 2 or 3 of them on untimed missions in past campaigns.

Grazing Fire - Lockdown - Shredder - Iron Curtain - Cool Under Pressure / Danger Zone - Rapid Fire - Traverse Fire

Might even take Danger Zone over Cool Under Pressure. Having Graze, a good Hair Trigger, and a good Aim might be better; hit more targets rather than go for hard focus on a single target. Combine 2 or 3 Gunners with 1 or 2 Rangers, possibly including a Reaction Specialist or Ranger, would make a good direct fire base.
Dwarfling wrote:What I'd like is the Suppression effect to be stronger further down the skill tree. As in, effects of Suppression stay whether they run it or not, at like MSGT. Or some kind of Covering Fire for Area Suppression targets.
And like merkmerk below, I like this. Covering Fire was improved by having a -Aim malus stick to its target for a turn whether it was hit or not. So should suppression.
Last edited by Jacke on Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
merkmerk
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by merkmerk »

Dwarfling wrote:What I'd like is the Suppression effect to be stronger further down the skill tree. As in, effects of Suppression stay whether they run it or not, at like MSGT. Or some kind of Covering Fire for Area Suppression targets.
I like this

LW always had a problem trying to take a weapon + explosives class and split it into two since LW1 when you had rocketeers vs gunners.
Psieye
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Psieye »

stefan3iii wrote:It's probably too much work, but I'd like to see gunners just take an entirely new niche, so that they aren't just slightly different Rangers. Ditch Rapid Fire and Traverse, and instead buff their cooldown based abilities. Make them more of a utility shooter class, that also has shots that hit in an AOE. With Rapid Fire and Traverse gone you could buff a lot of their other perks: Iron Curtain, Saturation (could be moved earlier in the tree), Hail, Demolition, Suppression etc.

Might need some entirely new perks to make this work, like say a line AE. Probably out of scope, but I can dream.
I get the impression they didn't want the cooldown piano gunner of 1.2 - I'm all for removing Rapid Fire and Traverse to go for a more unique niche. Something like "Suppression Fire is now a pseudo DoT - guaranteed damage ticks at the start of enemy turn", "Enemies under suppression can panic" or "AI must take a Flush-like backwards move when running Suppression Fire". Or if we must put some cooldown abilities, "non-autoloader free reload - 4 turn cooldown"?
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Icarus
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Icarus »

joebill wrote:On timed missions I'd rather just kill things with a walk-fire ranger than use a gunner to suppress.
Walk fire is a little better in that regard, but you can grazing fire with the gunner. That said, a gunner's HoB is a lot more reliable than a ranger's Walk Fire (but makes you miss out on Shredder).
joebill wrote:On missions where I fight a swarm of enemies, I usually find that they still manage to stand one or two tiles too far apart for Area Suppression. If I just want to suppress one thing, I'll take a technical and suppress it while I close to burn range. Or I'll just use flashbangs, which have the same AOE except I can place it wherever, instead of centered on a unit.
That sounds like flashbang and suppression is either-or. Flashbang alone is insufficient control in my opinion. Suppress on top. And while a technical might be able to suppress, he gets neither the aim nor the damage on it that a gunner gets, and it isn't difficult to get at least two people in an area suppression.
Psieye
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by Psieye »

Icarus wrote: That sounds like flashbang and suppression is either-or.
I keep being surprised by how people think they can get away with doing just one thing (in addition to taking cover) to lower enemy aim. There's a reason why I value SMG Squaddie spec smoke-mules in large squads: I don't care what else a spec can do, the most valuable thing they bring to large fights is enabling tanking. And by 'tanking' I mean 'the aliens give up and don't even bother shooting'.
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chaosxxxxx
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Re: Let's talk Gunner

Post by chaosxxxxx »

Forgive me,i did not read all of the comments.
Yes,in terms of damage dealing,gunners will indeed fall behind rangers and assaults.
But they are crucial for general 'survivability' of your squad.
I am in late december,with close to 40 soldiers,and i have 6-7 gunners;all of them are suppression/reaction shot builds,except one(i built her simply for experiment)
And let me tell you, they make most missions significantly easier,especially on supply raids/troop columns.
For example,it has happened twice that i was able to entirely annihilate a rainbow pod with 3 actions(in a single turn).
How?
step 1:Put your overwatch ranger on overwatch
Step 2:Kill zone with gunner(must have cool under pressure+LOCKDOWN;along with advanced/elite hair trigger)
Step 3: burnination with technical
Your ranger with rapid reaction will hit 3,gunner with kill zone will hit 5(remember,both of them are likely to crit half their shots).
And my officer did not even have the perk that gives 10% bonus on reaction shots.
If you are trying to build a shooty/hybrid gunner,it will not pay off nicely;there are other classes for that.Shooting/dealing damage is not their strength,debuffing enemies is(suppression/cover destruction etc). crowd control is where gunners really shine,and apart from support grenadiers,no one else provides that service.And unlike grenadiers,gunners are not limited to charges.
To sum up,gunners are DEFINITELY not WEAK; you just need to rethink your approaches.
This is the general build i currently use,and will likely use on my next legend run...
combatives/lockdown/hail of bullets/demolition/cool under pressure/kill zone/saturation fire...
U can take danger zone instead of Cool under pressure,if your gunner has godly aim...
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