(Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

wobuffet
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(Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by wobuffet »

For Sharpshooters, DFA is too powerful relative to Rapid Targeting and Snap Shot (its two LCPL alternative perks). [Source: xwynns, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgff2ZZwBso#t=12m40s]
(edit: This discussion has somehow become in part a referendum on Xavier "Firemental" Wynns' opinions. Sorry about that, mate.)

Here's the status quo (as of 1.4):
Death From Above: Killing an enemy at a lower elevation with your primary weapon costs only a single action and does not end your turn. Also removes all squadsight-range aim penalties when using sniper rifles at any elevation.

Rapid Targeting You may Holotarget an enemy as a free action with a 4-turn cooldown. In addition, Holotargeting no longer ends your turn.

Snap Shot: You may take standard shots with your sniper rifle after moving, but you suffer range penalties beyond 5 tiles of squadsight range (-10 per tile). Snap Shot does not replace standard sniper rifle shot when you have 2 actions. Does not allow Overwatch with a single action.
What are some nerfs for DFA or buffs for the other two that might work?

Here are some ideas:
- DFA halves squadsight-range Aim penalties (instead of eliminating them entirely).
- DFA still eliminates squadsight range Aim penalties but suffers from Crit penalties.
- Rapid Targeting cooldown reduced from 4 to 2 turns.
- Rapid Targeting also imposes -15 Dodge to target.
- Snap Shot also adds +1 Mobility.
- Snap Shot allows for a single movement-only action after taking a shot with your first action.
Last edited by wobuffet on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
Psieye
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by Psieye »

I don't think Rapid Targetting needs to be balanced against the other two at all. It exists for sharpshooters who have bad aim. Any sharpshooter who has high aim is going to pick a different perk.
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Thrombozyt
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by Thrombozyt »

To be frank, i don't know why he is griping about DFA snipers when he is happily abusing Combatives to take a good portion of the tough enemies out of the game. That is a much, much bigger concern when following the campaign.

Let's compare the two:
DFA snipers are god-like on untimed missions with elevation and a relatively unobstructed field of fire combined with a phantom scout. Then they can reliably take out one enemy per turn from across the map.

Combatives takes any muton, berserker and archon out of the game provided that you can control/kill the rest of the pod. Archons you need to shoot once first to enrage them. Clearly DFA snipers are the problem out of the two, right?

From my point of view, DFA snipers - and for that matter the starting sniper tree - are reasonably balanced. You have DFA snipers mostly for untimed missions. You have holotarget snipers for officer/support duty that can double as a scout. You have snapshot snipers that can move on the flanks and take pot shots. Each build has their niche. In the whole sniper tree (IMHO) the only outlier is Long Watch that requires the sharpshooter to have rapid reactions/guardian/sentinel AND Cool under Pressure through the AWC in order to become worthwile.
wobuffet
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by wobuffet »

Thrombozyt wrote:To be frank, i don't know why he is griping about DFA snipers when he is happily abusing Combatives to take a good portion of the tough enemies out of the game. That is a much, much bigger concern when following the campaign.
Not to get too off-topic here, but I'm pretty sure he'd say both should be changed! It feels a bit off to say A doesn't need fixing because B is worse.
In the whole sniper tree (IMHO) the only outlier is Long Watch that requires the sharpshooter to have rapid reactions/guardian/sentinel AND Cool under Pressure through the AWC in order to become worthwile.
Agreed, Long Watch is pretty pathetic. Not clear how to fix it though. Perhaps an Aim-buffed shot but with a cooldown or something?
DerAva
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by DerAva »

I can't see how you could conclude that DfA is the problem from watching that video. Heck, one of the snipers in the video has a Rapid Targeting spec. Any Sniper spec is able to take out any amount of enemies in that situation, since you have:
  • unlimited time (no RNFs)
  • enemies with no idea where you are, so they flank themselves to your snipers
  • line of sight provided by a concealed unit, so no danger to your other soldiers
  • a lucky map with available high ground and unobstructed line of sight
So if the way the mission was handled is a problem then here are some ideas for solutions:
  • give enemies knowledge of enemies that are out of vision so they don't flank themselves and maybe hunker down against their direction
  • make squadsight only work with vision provided by revealed units
DonCrabio
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by DonCrabio »

DFA sniper can take out one target per turn if he have elevation and LOS and Steady. Generally, it useful only on untimed missions. I don't see how this is overpowered and why someone may want to nerf it. Long Watch need something like covering fire integrated to make it worthy.

Snapshot SS very useful for Smash'n'Grab missions, just to pull pods from Squadsight range.
DaviBones
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by DaviBones »

I think this is an issue with AI, not sharpshooter balance. As DerAva mentioned, any two snipers could have taken advantage of that situation, DfA or otherwise. If the AI were instead coded to move cover-to-cover towards XCOM, hunkering along the way, xwynns would have had a hell of a time that mission, perhaps even having to retreat, since he was woefully unprepared for a prolonged non-squadsight engagement.

Honestly, if the AI always did move -> hunker in the place of the all-too-frequent blue move -> blue move, it would be much more difficult to exploit.
Steve-O
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by Steve-O »

Personally, I don't have any problem with a sniper taking out one enemy per turn from across the map.

That's what snipers do.

I remember snipers from XCOM1 who had inverted range penalties, so not only were they reliably taking out enemies from across the map, but they usually had 100% hit 100% crit while doing it. I never felt snipers in XCOM1 were OP because of that. It's the one thing they do and they do it very well. If caught in any other situation, their performance becomes significantly less impressive. That's how they're balanced - they're a one trick pony.
LordYanaek
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by LordYanaek »

wobuffet wrote:For Sharpshooters, DFA is too powerful. [Source: xwynns, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgff2ZZwBso#t=12m40s]
I would be careful about using that episode of xwynns' campaign as a reference for several reasons.
  • He's a top player and knows exactly how to play including how to avoid those small mistakes like moving your shinobi one tile too far and being spotted. Sure it looks easy when he's doing it but it might work differently when you try to do it yourself.
  • Then he tend to be pretty lucky in tactical battles to the point it sometimes look like he's not playing the same game. I keep joking about "xwynns mode" for flamethrower (as he sets way more enemies on fire then i typically do with the same flamethrower) but it looks like it goes beyond that. I've never seen ADVENT being so stupid and i have 2 squads specialized for ambushes and built around a triple sniper core so i've used snipers+shinobi spotter a lot. Of course they are strong, or i wouldn't have those 2 squads but their fights rarely look like this with ADVENT running in circles. When i trigger a pod i know it will come straight for me, usually taking cover correctly. When multiple pods are around i also know i must be careful as some of them will try to maneuver around my guys and attack the snipers so those squads are full 8 and 9 soldiers squads with overwatchers spread some distance around the snipers to try and prevent some bad surprises and even this way those squads do take wounds, including the snipers.
  • Finally it was a very light supply raid. I've never seen this in my games. He took down the entire command pod (3 sneks+sectoid commander) with a flamethrower opening so actually it was 6 ADVENT vs 2 snipers. Of course it wasn't a difficult fight, however good luck for his 3 men HQ if he really tries to do it!
Alketi
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by Alketi »

DFA solution -- TURN 1 activations for all maps! :D

At best, DFA is one kill and then you can re-steady. So, on light-ish troop columns you can scout ahead and kill from a distance and perhaps have the opportunity to do it twice before being spotted. On any other untimed map (HQ, Blacksite, etc) with Heavy/Swarming levels you have so many criss-crossing enemies you can't possibly do this reliably without greatly risking your shinobi scout.

Also, Xavier crit a Deadshot aided by a holotarget from another sharpshooter. Crit + Deadshot is the only way you can reliably 1-shot kill at T2/T3 as most enemies have too many HP. So, he hit the 50/50 crit with DFA giving him less aim and crit bonus than the holotarget.

What's supposed to happen after a shot like this is that the remaining enemies double-move in the direction of the attack, meaning they'll most likely spot your team. If this was a pod of 6-8 with a MEC or two (T3 MECs have ~25HP and 4+ armor) then he'd very likely be eating missiles the next turn, but this was a light-ish troop column, which is where you can snipe with some impunity.
stefan3iii
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by stefan3iii »

I really disagree that DFA is OP, from an L/I perspective. It's a good perk, and DFA sharpshooters are competitive with other classes in the mid and late game. DFA snipers are very good on maps without timers, less so on smash and grab, and ok on GOPs.

I think snapshot is probably fine. I don't use them, but that's because I just don't bother bringing sharpshooters on GOPs, not sure how you'd buff it anyway, give some passive movement buff?. Rapid Targeting is really weak and should be buffed. I'd probably give it a 1 turn cooldown, so you can use it every second turn. I still probably wouldn't take the perk, but I'd at least see a reasonable argument for doing so. Other option is to just remove rapid targeting and replace it with something else, or combine it with some other holo perk like independent tracking.
wobuffet
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by wobuffet »

Lots of interesting feedback here!
Edited OP to clarify that DFA seems too powerful in comparison to RT and SS.
nmkaplan
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by nmkaplan »

I really like xwynns videos, but I absolutely hate it when he starts kvetching about balance out of context.

An 11-enemy supply raid (no timer) at strength 2 against 4 high level XCom soldiers is really not the place to be making sweeping claims about the balance of a core perk. Sometimes missions are going to be easy.
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

RT goes for a support build.

I think it's hard to compare a support vs a hitter build; as support enhances everyone else. Whether that is powerful enough; that's a more complex debate.

As for SS vs DFA, I don't think DFA is more powerful.

DFA is more powerful on non-timed missions.
SS is more powerfull on timed missions.

Example:

SS Officer can use his skills .e.g. Getsome (crit to all squad) than shoot
SS can use a rocket + shoot if you have salvo AWG
SS can pistol shot + shoot with AWG

Sniper Officer is very effective for Training missions. Since Sniper is the class that has the highest aim progression, Lead By Example will buff the party with +10/+15 aim more than any other class. That's like giving everyone free elite scopes + elite hairtriggers. DFA will not work well here since you typically camp on a roof outside of command range -> no bonuses to your squad.
DaviBones
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by DaviBones »

nmkaplan wrote:I really like xwynns videos, but I absolutely hate it when he starts kvetching about balance out of context.

An 11-enemy supply raid (no timer) at strength 2 against 4 high level XCom soldiers is really not the place to be making sweeping claims about the balance of a core perk. Sometimes missions are going to be easy.
Agreed. Didn't think of it from this angle when I posted, but this mission would have been mind-numbingly easy regardless of what soldier classes he brought, just like all the other 8-12 enemy missions he does. I think Xavier is just getting bored of the super-easy-mode his campaign is in right now because of him being so far ahead.
oesis
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by oesis »

I feel as though Death from above and Rapid targeting are both useful whereas, snap shot seems pointless. I feel this way, since from a class standpoint Id almost always rather have a ranger, than a snapshot sniper. At best, snapshot is making the best of a bad situation vs's working towards a classes strength.

One issue I have with rapid targeting is that it scales too well. In that very little of the benefit is front loaded, and most of the benefit comes from higher tier items and levels. You spend along time at +10 hit, then you eventually get +10 crit, but the + damage is way down the class tree, and higher tier holo targeters take awhile to get, and are gated at techs requiring corpses. So a MSgt with t3 holo targeter might be great late game, but will struggle to have as much impact early.

Death from above is just really useful with the interaction with stock, though obviously is reliant on actually finding high ground.

This is a side note, but people were commenting on how snipers could be abused with shinobis to pick off units from fog. My house rule is that I don't shoot at targets that won't be able to yellow move into mine. I don't think the AI is really capable of handling snipers out of vision, and I'm not sure the game can be modded to change that.
Jacke
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by Jacke »

DaviBones wrote:I think Xavier is just getting bored of the super-easy-mode his campaign is in right now because of him being so far ahead.
I'm not sure Xavier is so far ahead. His squads still look undergeared and his research may not be advanced enough. I think he also needs more troops.

But he's a really good player and can manage that on the strategic level for a while. But I also see him making silly mistakes in his battles because he gets sloppy or impatient.
DaviBones
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by DaviBones »

Jacke wrote:I'm not sure Xavier is so far ahead. His squads still look undergeared and his research may not be advanced enough. I think he also needs more troops.

But he's a really good player and can manage that on the strategic level for a while. But I also see him making silly mistakes in his battles because he gets sloppy or impatient.
When I said he was ahead, I meant in terms of regional strength management. He still has regions contacted with only 1 or 2 strength, and is able to consistently do basically all his missions in these easy regions. Partially thanks to all the extra resistance contacts he's found.
maikk
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by maikk »

DFA in the current state is highly abusable, as perfectly demonstrated by xwynns in the linked video and the previous episode's troop column (this one--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1rCEmyTUFU )

Yes, of course he's a very good player, but the ability itself completely removing any squadsight penalty is too exploitable in his current state.

All you need is a shinobi to give vision and the enemies start flanking themselves which means basically a guaranteed crit per turn (or 2 with command)
Alketi
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by Alketi »

maikk wrote:All you need is a shinobi to give vision and the enemies start flanking themselves which means basically a guaranteed crit per turn (or 2 with command)
The enemies won't be flanked AND at squadsight AND be available for two flank shots as I think you're implying. After the first shot the pod takes cover. Additionally, a distant shinobi would be out of command range.

But yes you can take two shots if DFA triggers and instead of steadying you get commanded. I've never done it but did see xwynns do it effectively on a mission or two. I've generally had better uses of command and/or am at the point in the campaign where I can't easily one-shot unwounded enemies. You can also take five shots total with an aim-stacked Rapid Fire Ranger under the same circumstances, or you can move the Ranger and then get four flank shots. But, if this is only considered abuse when it applies to a sharpshooter then perhaps remove the sharpshooter from the command list when DFA has triggered..
maikk
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by maikk »

Alketi wrote:
maikk wrote:All you need is a shinobi to give vision and the enemies start flanking themselves which means basically a guaranteed crit per turn (or 2 with command)
The enemies won't be flanked AND at squadsight AND be available for two flank shots as I think you're implying. After the first shot the pod takes cover. Additionally, a distant shinobi would be out of command range.

But yes you can take two shots if DFA triggers and instead of steadying you get commanded. I've never done it but did see xwynns do it effectively on a mission or two. I've generally had better uses of command and/or am at the point in the campaign where I can't easily one-shot unwounded enemies. You can also take five shots total with an aim-stacked Rapid Fire Ranger under the same circumstances, or you can move the Ranger and then get four flank shots. But, if this is only considered abuse when it applies to a sharpshooter then perhaps remove the sharpshooter from the command list when DFA has triggered..
watch the video linked in the first post and see how he exploits the long range and how clueless is the AI in moving

command is not the point, it's just something more you can do. He didn't do it in his mission because his officer was the shinobi so he was too far away, but if you take a non shinobi officer and stick him near your sharpshooter you are good to go.
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8wayz
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by 8wayz »

I think you are losing focus here. I have watched one of the last episodes, 50 or 51, where he did a supply raid with 26 total aliens taking 3 snipers on that one.

He literally took the first 20 to 30 turns looking for high ground and then carefully selecting the right moment where he would trigger only one, possibly two pods.

During the fight he almost retreated because of expecting two pods converging on his position, one of them being the command pod.

He, as a player, is abusing the AI and the patrol routines of pods, not any of the perks. He was well aware that he could not deal with more than one pod, no matter how good his soldiers, skills or luck were.

The problem lies with the AI and how it reacts to Sniper fire. Even if you have Snapshot, you will still be able to take lethal shots at an approaching pod which will not take properly cover.
Last edited by 8wayz on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
wobuffet
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by wobuffet »

Just to be more concrete on what we all mean by "AI improvements",
here are some ideas for behavior for aliens who are being attacked from who-knows-where:

(1) Clueless pods sprint away from danger and spread out much wider than normal to cover more area and try to catch a glimpse of XCOM.
(2) Clueless enemies go defensive, seeking out corner cover and hunkering – especially pod leaders.
(3) Clueless pods spread out wide and generally head toward the opposite corner of the map.
(4) Clueless pods that have had multiple members killed disband, with 1 or 2 (sprinting and) transferring to each remaining pod on the map.
(5) (probably too difficult to code) Surviving podmates calculate guesses as to the Squadsight attackers' location from what kind of cover that unit had before being shot: i.e., if the Muton that had north-facing cover just got shot, the pod will head south.
DaviBones
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by DaviBones »

wobuffet wrote:Just to be more concrete on what we all mean by "AI improvements",
here are some ideas for behavior for aliens who are being attacked from who-knows-where:

(1) Clueless pods sprint away from danger and spread out much wider than normal to cover more area and try to catch a glimpse of XCOM.
(2) Clueless enemies go defensive, seeking out corner cover and hunkering – especially pod leaders.
(3) Clueless pods spread out wide and generally head toward the opposite corner of the map.
(4) Clueless pods that have had multiple members killed disband, with 1 or 2 (sprinting and) transferring to each remaining pod on the map.
(5) (probably too difficult to code) Surviving podmates calculate guesses as to the Squadsight attackers' location from what kind of cover that unit had before being shot: i.e., if the Muton that had north-facing cover just got shot, the pod will head south.
I do like number 2, I think pods should absolutely be hunkering more versus non-visible assailants. Number 4 is good as well. As for the rest, well, I don't see a problem with straight up giving the AI the location of the sharpshooter(s). Makes sense both realism-wise (sniper rifles are incredibly loud even with a suppressor), as well as gameplay-wise.
sacho
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Re: (Sharpshooter balancing) Death From Above / Rapid Targeting / Snap Shot

Post by sacho »

I think the only balancing that DfA needs is to remove the endless sniper range, which is what really breaks the game(pods just can't handle being shot at from out of LoS). Snipers with DfA can already handle the aim penalty if you really need that one shot. Maybe one compromise is to limit the extra range to +5 tiles rather than infinite.
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