XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: (11/7/17 UPDATE: See announcement thread)

Phaseless
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Phaseless »

On one hand you say, to each their own, and then you display utter intolerance towards people deciding against buying a game you like. Stop it. It's annoying, and it's not your call to make. If you'd like to help firaxis, take a job in their marketing department. Just stop telling other people what to do and what is right. Everybody decides for their own what is right.
dethraker
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by dethraker »

Phaseless wrote:On one hand you say, to each their own, and then you display utter intolerance towards people deciding against buying a game you like. Stop it. It's annoying, and it's not your call to make. If you'd like to help firaxis, take a job in their marketing department. Just stop telling other people what to do and what is right. Everybody decides for their own what is right.
I fully believe to each their own, am I not allowed to discuss my own reasoning the way you are for not wanting to purchase? It's not my call to make, I'm not trying to make a call for you only to discuss.

You decided to tell me that I was, "missing the point" so I decided to explain to you that I was in fact not missing the point at all.
Desslok
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Desslok »

I have conceded that the more ways the game can be enjoyed the better.

Those that enjoy the pacing and flow of the "casual" vanilla xcom2 now have an expansion to sink their teeth into. I'm all for it. Go nuts.

For those of us who live and die by the more hardcore experience that LW2 and others (like Spectrum Green) offer, there is far too little on offer in this new expansion to convince us (well, me. I'm not talking for anyone other than myself) to forgo the deliciousness that LW2 has evolved into. I'm all for supporting Firaxis and completely understand that without their dedication to resurrecting the franchise i wouldnt have enjoyed the near thousand hours i've sunk into xcom2/lw2... Let alone Xcom eu/ew & the associated longwar - All of which i own and have supported Firaxis.

"Casuals" have WoTC, "Hardcore" have 1.5. some may dabble with WoTC from the hardcore breed.. Others, its just not even on their radar. YET /fingerscrossed.

ps - I think you confused my comments with Phaseless above
Phaseless
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Phaseless »

Yeah I was already wondering where I told him he was missing the point. Ok so that's why.
That's what happens when I reply without quoting
dethraker
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by dethraker »

JM01 wrote:When it comes to people's decisions about wanting to wait for Long War before buying WotC I can 100% understand why (even as someone who has both bought and is currently enjoying WotC). I don't think it is bad stance to have and quite honestly I almost said the same. Here are a few reasons why.
I can't honestly, not because I don't think others are justified but simply because a mod is never guaranteed and can only exist because a game is created. For many of the reasons you list to almost choosing not to go with WotC I can't agree that I feel the same at all, at least not from what I want in a game of this style.
JM01 wrote:1. The early game in the vanilla experience is GOD FUCKING AWEFUL!!!! Your rookies are worthless piles of trash whose only tactical option is to use grenades to blow up cover to set up a flank that they are likely going to miss anyway. In Long War all of your soldiers have 3 utility slots which they can use both frag AND flashbang grenades which gives them actual options for dealing with enemies other than just wasting shots that they have no business even missing in the first place.
I had the exact same experience with Long War 2, rookies missing shots or even worse rather than missing 1/4 of my shots I would graze 3/4 of the shots doing less overall damage than in vanilla. The extra utility slot is nice, but I don't need LW2 for that as it's easy to mod.
JM01 wrote:2. The strategic layer is actually meaningful and requires you to think about what you are doing in a certain area, like how many people are doing a job at said area, which missions to take which to abandon, which way to want to expand because you don't know anything about the avatar project until you liberate a region. Even with all of the new additions to the strategic layer in WotC it still doesn't feel a whole lot more useful than before. It's still just more of the same scan this and that until the next mission (you do have more variety in what you can enhance in terms of healing, build times or intel gethering than before with the way factions are set up but that is about it).
Compared to XCom 2 vanilla the LW2 strategic layer is by and far the superior option, I will never disagree with that. When you add in WotC I can no longer stand behind that statement, there are more options and strategies with the WotC experience than with LW2. At the same time that it was a nice twist to not know anything about the Avatar project until after liberating a region [which led many people to losing their first campaign], after you figure that part out it takes away options and becomes a binary operation. You MUST follow these steps or you lose before even getting started. So you're forced into one path rather than having options.
JM01 wrote:3. The tactical mechanics are SO MUCH BETTER in long war. The AI behaves WAY better in long way because they make better decisions forcing you to use better tactics to control them (though the soldiers have so many options that sometimes I still think it is a little easy to do so). The tactical layer feels so smooth in long war. In the vanilla experience it feels so god damn binary. Like it's either you use grenades or guaranteed damage abilities or your shots are likely going to miss. In vanilla it feels like if your shot is not 100% it may as well be 50% with as often as your soldiers miss 90+% shots. Granted you do end up grazing a lot in long war even with a 10% graze band but you will just about never miss 90% shots (unless the enemy has a lot of dodge).
I agree with you for the most part except that LW2 didn't remove the necessity to carry explosives, if anything it made it more of a requirement, they just gave you more utility slots so you can also carry other gear on top of the required explosives. In vanilla it was actually difficult sometimes to load out pre-mission due to the fact that you can only take so much and you have to decide between another ammo type or a specialty item(just an example). I don't even want to get into Graze but I'm about 95% certain that you end up doing less overall damage due to Graze than missing the shots in vanilla. I'd rather miss 1/4 of my shots than hit every single one and do 1/4 damage half the time.
JM01 wrote:4. The tactical layer in long war seems to have an appropriate difficulty curve in that it starts off easier and then starts to get harder even when your solders start getting better gear and skills. The enemy just scales so well that they can keep up with your tech for the most part (though it is possible to rush tech and just alpha strike the hell out of everything and kill it before they can do anything). In vanilla it starts off so bad because of how bad low rank soldiers are but when you get to the later part of the game where your soldiers get more gear and skills it really starts to become a joke and that isn't even taking into consideration alien ruler and chosen gear. If you get both types of gear it becomes almost impossible to lose the tactical layer later. I found myself at the end of the first campaign just not even caring about how I was moving up in maps during missions because everything was so brain dead easy to deal with.
Here's where our views differ vastly for this type of game. These are a superior force that are able to control the entire planet and we are a rag-tag group of terrorists trying to "take back our planet". They should be hard in the early game, they should get close to beating us until we're able to adapt and gear up more appropriately, and then when we get to where we can beat them regularly then that means we're powerful enough to expel them. Now the end game does get a bit too easy even for me, but that's why Long War 2 is such a popular mod, there are enough people that enjoy a more drawn out and painful experience.
JM01 wrote:5. Coil guns, enough said.
I was excited to hear they are making a pack for everyone to use these outside Long War for WotC, really great design work on them.
dethraker
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by dethraker »

Phaseless wrote:Yeah I was already wondering where I told him he was missing the point. Ok so that's why.
That's what happens when I reply without quoting
Desslok wrote:I have conceded that the more ways the game can be enjoyed the better.

Those that enjoy the pacing and flow of the "casual" vanilla xcom2 now have an expansion to sink their teeth into. I'm all for it. Go nuts.

For those of us who live and die by the more hardcore experience that LW2 and others (like Spectrum Green) offer, there is far too little on offer in this new expansion to convince us (well, me. I'm not talking for anyone other than myself) to forgo the deliciousness that LW2 has evolved into. I'm all for supporting Firaxis and completely understand that without their dedication to resurrecting the franchise i wouldnt have enjoyed the near thousand hours i've sunk into xcom2/lw2... Let alone Xcom eu/ew & the associated longwar - All of which i own and have supported Firaxis.

"Casuals" have WoTC, "Hardcore" have 1.5. some may dabble with WoTC from the hardcore breed.. Others, its just not even on their radar. YET /fingerscrossed.

ps - I think you confused my comments with Phaseless above
Yea, wrote that in the morning before getting ready and didn't look close enough, apologies.

@phaseless, well I don't know what exactly I said to trigger you so I apologize I guess. Just merely trying to have a discussion the same as anyone else.

@desslok, I like the hardcore experience but have not enjoyed LW2 so far, I need to give it another go but as someone else stated only so much time to play and better alternatives have been available [for me that includes WotC]. The strategic in LW2 is really just not well put together for my tastes, I would love to see what Pavonis would do with the strategic changes in WotC but Infiltration seems too much of a, "We can't think of anything better to force the player to cycle through more soldiers". That's just me just like for you and others WotC doesn't offer enough complexity to justify much attention. Hopefully we do see a LWotC at some point though cause I am honestly curious what direction they would take the new additions to XCom 2.
Phaseless
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Phaseless »

I'm all for discussion, I just had a gripe with you judging people for their choice not to buy the expansion.
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johnnylump
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by johnnylump »

Let's steer this away from arguing about arguing and get back to the topic of, uh, nothing to announce. Criticizing LW2 and WotC is fine; criticizing each other doesn't really help anything.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

People please don't give me advice what I should buy or not. Please do not spawn game critics . Do not troll me.
I just wan't to know this - I there a chance for LW2 WoTC.
If I want review I can find a lot of them.

Now I will send my thanks to Pavonis team. It is hell of a mod. You have my support.
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dethraker
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by dethraker »

Phaseless wrote:I'm all for discussion, I just had a gripe with you judging people for their choice not to buy the expansion.
Felt more like "utter intolerance" for me making a simple observation. In fact after rereading everything since I joined the discussion you seem to be the only one taking [serious] offense to me. My statements weren't attacking anyone for their decisions but merely expressing my view that supporting Firaxis is supporting Pavonis in this instance. So to me that feels more like you're all for discussion unless you don't agree with what is said. Others that didn't agree with me said so in a less confrontational manner, in the form of a discussion.

I too hope for Long War of the Chosen, but I feel that supporting the core game is equally important. I want Pavonis to prove that they can outdo WotC with meaningful changes to the amazing improvements done in the expansion. Though I must also admit I just want clear answers. Are they working on something or not? Is it finally time that Pavonis goes full steam into Terra Invicta development?

I'm more or less fed up with the, nothing right now, statements that have been surrounding XCom 2 and Pavonis. Hopefully 2K takes the leash off sometime soon.
dethraker
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by dethraker »

johnnylump wrote:Let's steer this away from arguing about arguing and get back to the topic of, uh, nothing to announce. Criticizing LW2 and WotC is fine; criticizing each other doesn't really help anything.
Apologies, didn't see this before posting my last response, very well put and I'm glad that you guys are open to criticism. I admit I have high expectations of you based on previous work but I do believe you have done a wonderful job, even if its not to my liking all the time.
rfriar
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by rfriar »

dethraker wrote:
Phaseless wrote:I'm all for discussion, I just had a gripe with you judging people for their choice not to buy the expansion.
Felt more like "utter intolerance" for me making a simple observation. In fact after rereading everything since I joined the discussion you seem to be the only one taking [serious] offense to me. My statements weren't attacking anyone for their decisions but merely expressing my view that supporting Firaxis is supporting Pavonis in this instance. So to me that feels more like you're all for discussion unless you don't agree with what is said. Others that didn't agree with me said so in a less confrontational manner, in the form of a discussion.

I too hope for Long War of the Chosen, but I feel that supporting the core game is equally important. I want Pavonis to prove that they can outdo WotC with meaningful changes to the amazing improvements done in the expansion. Though I must also admit I just want clear answers. Are they working on something or not? Is it finally time that Pavonis goes full steam into Terra Invicta development?

I'm more or less fed up with the, nothing right now, statements that have been surrounding XCom 2 and Pavonis. Hopefully 2K takes the leash off sometime soon.
Have patience, there's always other games to play, or indeed, other hobbies to enjoy.

IF LWoTC is indeed being developed, 2K is likely monitoring sales figures to time an announcement with a die down in sales, in order to renew interest once that happens.
dethraker
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by dethraker »

rfriar wrote:Have patience, there's always other games to play, or indeed, other hobbies to enjoy.

IF LWoTC is indeed being developed, 2K is likely monitoring sales figures to time an announcement with a die down in sales, in order to renew interest once that happens.
That's part of the problem I personally have though. Long War 2 is marketed as a mod but treated as a developed product, this method of controlling a "mod" is really in poor taste but since it works they are going to continue. Modding is supposed to be transparent, really the only transparent development process any longer. Ok, tinfoil hat rant over!
LordYanaek
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by LordYanaek »

SonnyWiFiHr wrote:I just wan't to know this - I there a chance for LW2 WoTC.
Well, you can read the official position in this thread's title ;)
If you want the unofficial speculative position, many people here (myself included) think it will be developed and we see "signs" regularly but keep in mind it's just speculation :P

Reasonably speaking, if you don't feel the urge to play WotC now, just wait a little longer and you can be sure you'll get some sales, some bugs patched and maybe you'll know whether or not LW2 will be ported.

From a pure practical PoV, WotC doesn't prevent you from playing LW2 because it's actually a different executable and you can still start the old vanilla XCOM2 and any mod made for it even after installing WotC so nothing prevents you from playing both, just not both together currently.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

I always play LW it is in my blood.
My only issue is STEAM (managing my mods).
It takes time to announce new version of LW. This is BIG mod with NEW stuff (ideas). Just to put new ideas on paper takes time. To port this mod to NEW game - this is hard work.
This forum should be more supportive.

Beer , Rock'n Roll and Death form Above
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rfriar
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by rfriar »

Forum support means nothing if 2K doesn't pay Pavonis to develop LWoTC
marceror
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by marceror »

On the topic of nothing to announce, I just want to let it be known that I prefer my nothing with an extra side of nothing, and nothing sprinkled on top. Mmmmmm! Or rather, Mmmmmm?

Nothing is delicious.
rfriar
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by rfriar »

But when you mix something and nothing together, mmm....that's the real treat.
JulianSkies
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by JulianSkies »

dethraker wrote:
rfriar wrote:Have patience, there's always other games to play, or indeed, other hobbies to enjoy.

IF LWoTC is indeed being developed, 2K is likely monitoring sales figures to time an announcement with a die down in sales, in order to renew interest once that happens.
That's part of the problem I personally have though. Long War 2 is marketed as a mod but treated as a developed product, this method of controlling a "mod" is really in poor taste but since it works they are going to continue. Modding is supposed to be transparent, really the only transparent development process any longer. Ok, tinfoil hat rant over!
Uhn? As far as I know 2K's involvement ended as soon as the original 1.0 of LW2 was developed, if i'm not wrong they didn't even have a support contract meaning every version afterwards was entirely because PI wanted to keep working on it.
rfriar
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by rfriar »

You're right, patches afterwards were made on their own time.
Desslok
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Desslok »

I've had abit of a change of heart in some respects. Stemming from how content i am with LW 1.5.

If there is no WoTC update for Longwar so be it. The game is in a more than acceptable state right now and while the expansion content and engine tweaks would be welcomed, its by no means a deal breaker if it doesn't eventuate. Tbh, i'm far more interested to see Terra Invicta progress and the more time spent in that regard the better imo.
Phaseless
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Phaseless »

I would buy the expansion immediatly if the engine changes carried over to the base game. :D
dethraker
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by dethraker »

Desslok wrote:I've had abit of a change of heart in some respects. Stemming from how content i am with LW 1.5.

If there is no WoTC update for Longwar so be it. The game is in a more than acceptable state right now and while the expansion content and engine tweaks would be welcomed, its by no means a deal breaker if it doesn't eventuate. Tbh, i'm far more interested to see Terra Invicta progress and the more time spent in that regard the better imo.
Now this I can agree with 100%. If they were to come out and say that short of bug fixes they are done modding XCom 2 and moving all attention to Terra Invicta I would be ecstatic. I want to see what PI can do on their own.
Phaseless
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Phaseless »

Yes! Can't wait to see how their own flesh and blood Baby Project turns out. (Baby in the sense of "it's my Baby", not because of size ;) )
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

I want to buy - preorder Long War.
I don't even care how expensive it will be.
This game force me to think. Base game is just fun to play. I have stealth overhaul + some uber class mods. Right now I m playing WoTC without WoTC. Squad cohesion , Metal over flesh, Peek from concealment , Make PSI Great Again , Battle rifle + Every weapon class mod. Only downside are new maps but I have every map/parcel/pcp mode

If Pavonis choose to make their NEW game first. They have right to do it and it will be right step to make. If putting price on Long War will help to make their own game. Put the price.
We mortals need to earn money for living.
Last thing I want is to make them regret making LW or regret not to push new game.
It is not easy choice
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