Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Dwarfling
Posts: 524
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:16 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Dwarfling »

LordYanaek wrote:[*]"Grenade Sniper" Needle Grenades→Center Mass→Boosted Cores/Formidable→Tandem Warheads→Chain Shot→Salvo→Full Kit.
Y'know, you could use Sapper, bring one or two Plasmas (or get them thru Airdrop), salvo demolish their cover THEN shoot. No cover and shred is the biggest buff to shooting you can get. Sapper is very reliable after the buff, only things it can't take out are large trees and reinforced walls. With HEAT over Tandem now you got another solution to the +5 armor stuff you might not have a Shredder around for.
Dlareh
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:41 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Dlareh »

LordYanaek wrote:
Shaenix wrote: Here is a clip of my rocket almost hit the target dead center but still doing 1 dmg.

In LW1, I use rocket as an emergency backup for those "Oh crap" situations.
In LW2, rocket sometimes just causes more crap. I wish they would be more reliable.
Just to be sure, you don't have the mod causing cover to reduce damage? It could explain those 1 damage if the enemy have cover from the tile where the rocket lands.
The other explanation would be a dodge. I really think guaranteed hits shouldn't be dodged but seeing as relays can "dodge" shots when Graze Band is active, i wouldn't be surprised if you could also dodge grenades/rockets. It would even be far less stupid.
Will to Survive dark event, maybe?
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
Shaenix
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:57 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Shaenix »

WanWhiteWolf wrote: That looks horrible. Seems rockets are even worst than I knew.
I am not sure how many people go Racketeer spec on a Technical. For me flame build is way more powerful.
Despite that clip shows the extreme situation, most of my rockets are doing what they are supposed to do. But yes, they do crappy things from time to time.
I tried the flame build before it got fixed to be more reliable, and all I had were bad memories. Guess I should give it a revisit now.
I think LW2 rocketeers are pretty bad because:
- They they don't have shreder rocket - that they used to; concussion rocket is ....well...I am considering sometimes rocketing my own people with it.
I was thinking the same thing after I tried to ambush a pod of muton elites with it in my 1.1 campaign. No one got stunned or disoriented and they all moved into high covers with the smoke bonus...
It got buffed in 1.3 (Increased chance, more dmg, more AOE) but I think the most important thing to change should be the smoke. It needs to spawn around the Rocketeer instead of the impact zone or remove it completely. What kind of CC skill gives a buff to your enemy. :evil:
I think the LW team doesn't like the "explosives" idea since it makes the game easy. As in - you destroy the cover; you shoot with the people who can; done. It doesn't take that much decision making and most of the outcome is RNG based (missing those high % shots) rather than skill based. I think they had a similar approach on LW1 at some point.
I guess they overextended a bit - or at lest this is how I see things - because most explosives are pretty useless and nobody bothers with them. Fire grenade slipped through the cracks but that's about it. Hence...most people go for PSI early since those guys don't care about cover.
Yeah, I'm the very kind of guy who sets up overwatch ambush with concealment shinobi, removes covers with explosives or any other means, then shots the exposed enemies and CC the rest. Although it's not as powerful and mindless as it was in vanilla, it still works at least in my current campaign.
Yeah, explosives are to OP in vanilla. I feel like they have the mass of a planet, and can destroy anything it touches. I'm happy with balancing but I also agree with you: some of the balances are little too much.
LordYanaek wrote: Just to be sure, you don't have the mod causing cover to reduce damage? It could explain those 1 damage if the enemy have cover from the tile where the rocket lands.
The other explanation would be a dodge. I really think guaranteed hits shouldn't be dodged but seeing as relays can "dodge" shots when Graze Band is active, i wouldn't be surprised if you could also dodge grenades/rockets. It would even be far less stupid.
I don't think I've any mod can do that. These are the mods I'm using.
I also turn the graze band off in my game and I don't think you can graze explosions. It only works on direct hits based on my understanding.
Dlareh wrote:
LordYanaek wrote:Will to Survive dark event, maybe?
Good guess. But this was in April or early May and there were no DEs activating when I was checking the geoscape last time.
I haven't liberated a region yet. Could this be the reason I can't see any DEs? No DEs in May feels little weird if I think about it.
Dlareh
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:41 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Dlareh »

Not sure, but I see you have Yet Another F1 installed which should show the perk if you have a save from when it happened.
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
Shaenix
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:57 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Shaenix »

Dlareh wrote:Not sure, but I see you have Yet Another F1 installed which should show the perk if you have a save from when it happened.
In that case, no. Even the enemies in my current stage don't have it. Unless this perk got changed from a permanent DE to one with limited duration in a patch. But I can't recall I've seen anything related to that.
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by LordYanaek »

Shaenix wrote: Good guess. But this was in April or early May and there were no DEs activating when I was checking the geoscape last time.
I haven't liberated a region yet. Could this be the reason I can't see any DEs? No DEs in May feels little weird if I think about it.
Probably. DE show on the AVATAR screen and you don't have access to that screen before you liberate a region.
I had a look at your mod list and those are UI/QoL mods. The mod i have in mind (but can't remember the exact name) isn't there so it can't explain.
Last possibility is damage falloff. I don't know how and when it's calculated nor do i know if it can drop damage below the minimum damage displayed but if it's calculated after normal roll and you rolled the min damage, then maybe it can drop to only 1.
Shaenix
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:57 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Shaenix »

LordYanaek wrote: Last possibility is damage falloff. I don't know how and when it's calculated nor do i know if it can drop damage below the minimum damage displayed but if it's calculated after normal roll and you rolled the min damage, then maybe it can drop to only 1.
Tuhalu explained explosive damage falloff in his reply:
Tuhalu wrote:Explosive damage falloff is a factor in addition to min/max damage. You actually can have 1 damage due to falloff. In short, explosive damage falloff can reduce the damage from a grenade or rocket down to 50% of the actual damage rolled (with a minimum of 1). So a rocket doing 2-7 damage that catches an enemy with the very edge of it's radius would actually do 1-3 damage.

A longer explanation of the algorithm follows...
  1. Calculate the weapon damage. This is a random number between the min and max values and inclusive of both.
  2. Calculate the falloff. Every explosion has a radius. What percentage of the radius is the target tile from the center of the hit?
  3. Compare that percentage (DistanceRatio) to the UnitDamageSteps array below to get the DamageRatio. The lowest DamageRatio you can get where the DistanceRatio you found exceeds the DistanceRatio in the array is your DamageRatio. If you exceed no numbers, then it's 1.
  4. Now take the weapon damage and multiple it by the DamageRatio. If it's lower than 1, make it 1. Call this minDamage.
  5. Now take a random number between 0 and WeaponDamage - minDamage + 1 (not inclusive of the top end). Call this DamageFalloff.
  6. Finally, the actual damage is WeaponDamage - DamageFalloff.

Code: Select all

+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.2, DamageRatio=1.0)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.5, DamageRatio=0.75)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.75, DamageRatio=0.5)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=1.5, DamageRatio=0.25)
; use slop on the top end to avoid rounding errors excluding tiles on the outer edges
Since the rocket exploded very close to the enemy, I don't believe the damage fallof could result in 1 damage in this case.

I guess I'll submit a bug report then.
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