Any way to change muton melee AI?

Littlebob86
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Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:21 pm

Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Littlebob86 »

So watching xwynns is amazing, although frustrating at exploiting AI. Is there anyway to change the muton so that it doesn't just automatically melee anyone standing next to it. Seen as he just plants someone with combatives and the ai never learns!

Also, is there anyway to change burning so ai can still shoot but just with a massive debuff to aim?
Frei_Ninjesus
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Frei_Ninjesus »

I actually find it kind of immersive. I mean, I see the mutons as more of a brutish dude who tends to "rage" more often than, say, a stun lancer. Thus, even if they have an array of tactical options, the moment they see a dude(ette) brandishing a sword next to them they go all "must stab u puny earthling rawr yeahh!!".

On the other hand you have the stun lancer, a guy who seems to look for more tactically sound moves. Even strategic ones, considering that him dying by flanking himself after killing one of your guys is actually a sound move strategically speaking on the side of Advent, considering they have the numbers to spare.
DonCrabio
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by DonCrabio »

Why this big strong brute must avoid melee clashing with puny human? One unsuccessful attack cannot overweight self confidence and years of training.
Littlebob86
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Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:21 pm

Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Littlebob86 »

Well in one of his videos he counter attacked the muton he was standing next to, two turns in a row.. I mean, a muton isn't that dumb..

Personally I'd like it if all counter attacks were only 50%, so even the mutons :)
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

Littlebob86 wrote:So watching xwynns is amazing, although frustrating at exploiting AI. Is there anyway to change the muton so that it doesn't just automatically melee anyone standing next to it. Seen as he just plants someone with combatives and the ai never learns!

Also, is there anyway to change burning so ai can still shoot but just with a massive debuff to aim?
You cannot melee the muton either. So standing next to him can be viewed as a delay hit.

If melee is not reliable - as in the muton has a chance to shoot 50% - I doubt anyone would bother with the strategy or the perk itself. I would personally add a chance to stun your soldier. Therefore still a reliable strategy but with potential -known- drawbacks in future turns.

If you change the fire to act as an aim debuf then you have the same effect as poison - but weaker due to no movement penalty. Why would anyone take fire over poison in this case?

Anyway, burning enemies can still mellee you or throw grenades which can be more devastating than a shot. Sectoids are usually the only ones that are harmless when burning. The drawback is that they are coded to stay away from you so it's not easy / quite risky to attempt burning them in most situations.

Edit: Well, the basic trooper is also harmless but I don't think a mid tier tech to suppress the easiest to kill unit in the game is considered broken.
Manifest
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Manifest »

WanWhiteWolf wrote: You cannot melee the muton either. So standing next to him can be viewed as a delay hit.
I think this is a big reason to keep this in. At some point your soldier should be skilled enough to be able to work around counterattacks (because apparently SPARKS aren't strong enough), and if this is the method that must be used so be it. It's much more unwieldy than simply allowing your soldier to flèche into mutons, so it's balanced some way.
RantingRodent
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by RantingRodent »

You could make this a bit less exploitable by putting a 1-2 turn cooldown on the Muton melee attack. You can still expect to tank once, but you can't effectively lock down a Muton anymore by leaving a Combatives-equipped soldier sitting next to them.
  • Doesn't require mucking around with the Muton's AI
  • It's predictable enough to plan around
  • Doesn't nerf Combatives into uselessness
  • Having a Muton occasionally take a swing at your soldiers when it's unwise to do so feels right. having one sit there swinging forever doesn't
  • Mutons rarely melee multiple turns in a row under normal circumstances anyway
foreverdead
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by foreverdead »

I like the idea of a cooldown on Muton melee. It's really gaming and expolity to lock down a muton like that. The shinobi can shoot and grenade to their hearts content with their 'pet' muton just chilling beside them.

Oh does bladestorm work against a muton's melee? So you keep to free melee attacks a turn against a muton.

Alos does combatives interrupt your gunners suppression?
RantingRodent
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by RantingRodent »

Bladestorm and Combatives do work together (Bladestorm is technically overwatch, so it happens before the attack actually occurs).

Xwynns used a Gunner to Combatives tank a Muton while suppressing another in one of his recent episodes.

So it's very strong in general, even getting to do it occasionally.
MacroNova
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by MacroNova »

A cooldown to avoid the multi-turn lockdown is a good idea.

I just want to point out that if the muton knew you had combatives and refused to melee you because of it, that would make combatives the most worthless perk in history because it would never be triggered.
Swiftless
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Swiftless »

It's the only perk that even allows you to approach Mutons in melee, as Mutons themselves are a direct counter to Xcom melee. So it's basically a hard counter for a hard counter only in specific situations which seems legitimately fair even if it does feel a little 'hacky' at times.

IIrc that's about the first time I've seen it payoff in his current campaign out of what, 28 missions. I'd say it's situational usefulness is extremely rare on a Gunner. I personally don't take Combatives on Gunners because it would be so rare for me to use it that it's not worth spending the perk for it, ie. using it once in an entire campaign.

Really, it's the idea that Mutons are hard counters for melee that's more of the issue rather than the perk itself and also what the perk is doing on Gunners anyway. In addition if you change the Muton AI to be more like a Stun Lancer's then the perk usefulness is degraded dramatically for Gunners and Shinobi's.

The perk could be changed out for something else but then that makes an already sub-par knife just window dressing. Maybe someone else can point it out to me but I'm having a hard time imagining where I'd ever want to use the knife in a point blank situation over the main gun without Combatives. So again, it might feel a little hacky when it does get used but it also provides some legitimacy to the Gunner's secondary weapon in very situational cases. Otherwise it brings in the need to start talking about revamping the Gunner's weapon's load-out.

I will admit that a gunner being able to parry during a suppression is funky but that calls into question about the other funky things going on during suppression. How do they use cover? How can they dodge? How can they shoot something on the move while still suppressing something else? It just starts getting weird if you think about it too hard.
Tuhalu
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Tuhalu »

Swiftless wrote: The perk could be changed out for something else but then that makes an already sub-par knife just window dressing. Maybe someone else can point it out to me but I'm having a hard time imagining where I'd ever want to use the knife in a point blank situation over the main gun without Combatives. So again, it might feel a little hacky when it does get used but it also provides some legitimacy to the Gunner's secondary weapon in very situational cases. Otherwise it brings in the need to start talking about revamping the Gunner's weapon's load-out.
The Combat Knife has +25 accuracy and +25 crit making it very reliable and likely to crit. It's crit damage is higher than normal. It's also a single action attack, allowing you to stab twice. The LMG has -10 accuracy at point blank (optimal range is currently 5 tiles for +10 accuracy).

So all up, if something runs to point blank on your gunner you can stab them twice with high chance to hit and crit or run away to ~5 tiles for a single lower chance to hit and crit. Yes, the single shot can do significant damage if it hits and crits, but it is actually quite possible to do more damage with a double stab than with a single shot (at similar weapon grades).

Also, if you can kill something with 1 stab, you still have an action left to take a shot on something else.
MacroNova
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by MacroNova »

"Really, it's the idea that Mutons are hard counters for melee that's more of the issue rather than the perk itself"

Totally agree, Swiftless. Like, once you know this, the fact that the game even allows you to target Mutons with melee attacks feels like a bug or UI failure more than anything else.
RantingRodent
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by RantingRodent »

You can flashbang them to shut down their counterattack, though, right? So it's not always a mistake.
foreverdead
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by foreverdead »

RantingRodent wrote:You can flashbang them to shut down their counterattack, though, right? So it's not always a mistake.
Yep flashing and burning work as a counter to the muton melee. Also a muton only has a 50% counter rate anyway so its hardly a hard counter. To want a guaranteed lockdown for as many turns as you want that allows you to do a number of other things with the soldier is just kinda gamey. A cooldown means it works once and then you have to deal with it.
Swiftless
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Swiftless »

Tuhalu wrote:
Swiftless wrote: The perk could be changed out for something else but then that makes an already sub-par knife just window dressing. Maybe someone else can point it out to me but I'm having a hard time imagining where I'd ever want to use the knife in a point blank situation over the main gun without Combatives. So again, it might feel a little hacky when it does get used but it also provides some legitimacy to the Gunner's secondary weapon in very situational cases. Otherwise it brings in the need to start talking about revamping the Gunner's weapon's load-out.
The Combat Knife has +25 accuracy and +25 crit making it very reliable and likely to crit. It's crit damage is higher than normal. It's also a single action attack, allowing you to stab twice. The LMG has -10 accuracy at point blank (optimal range is currently 5 tiles for +10 accuracy).

So all up, if something runs to point blank on your gunner you can stab them twice with high chance to hit and crit or run away to ~5 tiles for a single lower chance to hit and crit. Yes, the single shot can do significant damage if it hits and crits, but it is actually quite possible to do more damage with a double stab than with a single shot (at similar weapon grades).

Also, if you can kill something with 1 stab, you still have an action left to take a shot on something else.
Interesting. I didn't know the knife had that much potential. I was on the assumption that as soon as you upgraded out of the starting LMG that any knife attacks would be very underwhelming, essentially since knives don't inherit any ammo or many other perk benefits. Do they inherit weapon module bonuses?

I'll have to play around with it. Do you find yourself investing in vibroblades for Gunners then?
Tuhalu
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Tuhalu »

Swiftless wrote: Interesting. I didn't know the knife had that much potential. I was on the assumption that as soon as you upgraded out of the starting LMG that any knife attacks would be very underwhelming, essentially since knives don't inherit any ammo or many other perk benefits. Do they inherit weapon module bonuses?

I'll have to play around with it. Do you find yourself investing in vibroblades for Gunners then?
No, they don't get the weapon module bonuses. The vibroblade upgrade is still worth the investment though. They only cost 10 supply and 1 alloy. If that gets you 1 extra kill in 10 missions it seems worth it.
Thrombozyt
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Thrombozyt »

Swiftless wrote:IIrc that's about the first time I've seen it payoff in his current campaign out of what, 28 missions. I'd say it's situational usefulness is extremely rare on a Gunner. I personally don't take Combatives on Gunners because it would be so rare for me to use it that it's not worth spending the perk for it, ie. using it once in an entire campaign.
I can think of at least 4 separate occasions in those 28 missions. Given that Mutons only showed up after 10-14 episodes, it's approaching a significant portion of missions.

I agree that a change is needed. Having the skill work 70-80% (of course Muton counterattack would have the same issue) of the time would still be fine to make this an emergency maneuver. As an alternative, you could make it a comparative check of offense+dodge (similar like psi abilities often are a contest between psi and will) to determine if the attack is parried/countered.

If that's too complicated, the melee cooldown seems appropriate.
hamds28
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by hamds28 »

Frankly, I don't understand why this is a big issue. Mutons being countered by a gunner or a shinobi with one specific perk, running into melee with the suboptimal positioning it creates sometimes, that seems okay. It's not game breaking unlike 0% raids and provides interesting gameplay and positioning options other than run to cover, shoot.
Frei_Ninjesus
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Frei_Ninjesus »

Does combatives have a cooldown? Last night I used my shinobi to control a muton by placing him right next to the guy, and sure enough the muton stayed in place and tried (and failed) to melee my shinobi. However, right after that a centurion came as well and stabbed him without combatives ever proc'ing. Is that how it's supposed to work?
RookieAutopsy
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by RookieAutopsy »

Only works against the first attack.
Swiftless
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Swiftless »

foreverdead wrote:
RantingRodent wrote:You can flashbang them to shut down their counterattack, though, right? So it's not always a mistake.
Yep flashing and burning work as a counter to the muton melee. Also a muton only has a 50% counter rate anyway so its hardly a hard counter. To want a guaranteed lockdown for as many turns as you want that allows you to do a number of other things with the soldier is just kinda gamey. A cooldown means it works once and then you have to deal with it.
I just had a Centurion Muton parry a slash attack while it was burning. It was weird because the game popped up the 'counterattack' dialogue from the Muton parry but no damage occurred and my shinobi seemed fine afterword (no damage). Not sure what's going on there.
Daergar
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Daergar »

Swiftless wrote:
foreverdead wrote:
RantingRodent wrote:You can flashbang them to shut down their counterattack, though, right? So it's not always a mistake.
Yep flashing and burning work as a counter to the muton melee. Also a muton only has a 50% counter rate anyway so its hardly a hard counter. To want a guaranteed lockdown for as many turns as you want that allows you to do a number of other things with the soldier is just kinda gamey. A cooldown means it works once and then you have to deal with it.
I just had a Centurion Muton parry a slash attack while it was burning. It was weird because the game popped up the 'counterattack' dialogue from the Muton parry but no damage occurred and my shinobi seemed fine afterword (no damage). Not sure what's going on there.
I hope that's a feature, albeit a very specific one; half the time when struck the highly trained centurion is able to fend off melee attacks even while incapacitated, be it by flames, acid or poison, oh my.

The same way, iirc, Archon's don't give a flying squirrel's left nut about being incapacitated and still violates your poor grenadier when you thought they were safe.
Goofych
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Goofych »

"Fixing" muttons AI is a dab idea cause it will return value of perk to near zero level it had before.
Cooldowns are bad idea because its hard to keep track of.
Chance to fail is a bad idea cause there is a multitude of ways to deal with a mutton and 0 way to deal with your soldier been decapitated.

Here is a good idea - make it incur a disorient on block. This will prevent suppression + blocking combo(its cool, but its too cool), will increase value of specialist and/or psi op in a party, but will prevent an indefinite block+dmg with no draw backs or help from anyone scenario.
Izzy
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Re: Any way to change muton melee AI?

Post by Izzy »

So how does the perk work? I always skipped it because it was never worth taking it on a gunner. But then I read about countering Mutons with shinobis placing next to them so I picked it on my newest shinobi. First mission he goes on i got in a hairy situation by making a bad activation and encountering several LOS Bugs (including Covering Fire just not activating). So I place my Shinobi right next to a uncontrolled Muton Centurion and.... it doesnt activate rendering my Shinobi unconcious, losing me the mission and possible squad wiping me there. So I used console to move my entire squad to the evac zone because I thought it another major game breaking bug and was already quite annoyed by all the LoS nonsense that happened in this mission. Then I read the perk description and it says "You MAY parry melee attacks....". So it has a chance to fail?
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