I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

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Doctor Sticks
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:40 am

I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by Doctor Sticks »

After running a campaign with Reliable Damage mod, coming back to 1.3, it is quite upsetting to miss back-to-back flanking shots, that otherwise would have been kills. RD has taught me to be more calculating, since I don't have to worry about sudden bursts of bad luck which are hard to otherwise avoid.

Considering just how often I resort to insta-hit abilities (grenades, Hail of Bullets, Combat Protocol, or simply shotgun-to-the-face), I have grown to detest taking 40% or so shots at the enemy. A small dose of bad luck can result in a dead solider, and Xcom, unlike Advent, can't afford to lose soldiers that much.

Now, for those who see the mod as Easy Mode, there are some downsides, in that if Advent focuses too much on one solider, that solider will almost certainly die. Likewise, you cannot hope that luck saves you, if you end up getting flanked yourself. The game is more predictable, which, of course, helps the player.

TL;DR - It is very hard to go back after playing RD.
VanTheMan
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by VanTheMan »

I haven't tried it yet but I've said to myself many times that Xcom should be doing something like it.

The problem with all this RNG is that there is no average value happening, because of the way the numbers are tweaked. Normal shots usually almost kill or kill when they hit, and crits usually always kill, for both sides. This isn't like a JRPG where any target takes anywhere from 5 to 20 hits to bring down.

That, and the turns are whole-side turns, so there's humongous snowball effects. If each unit had an independent speed stat and there was a turn order, the luck would be fine (final fantasy tactics), since there would usually be a way to react to the unthinkable happening.

The other main problem with this turn system is the whole issue of needing to game it with the pod reveals. If you aren't exploiting pod reveals to maximize the amount of actions your soldiers get vs the enemy, you're probably losing.
brunodema
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by brunodema »

Well, this is the way all XCOM works: is all about risk control. And I also believe that this is the beauty of this game and what makes it unique.

And God bless RNG, otherwise half of the fun of playing a game like this wouldn't exist.
VanTheMan
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by VanTheMan »

brunodema wrote:And God bless RNG, otherwise half of the fun of playing a game like this wouldn't exist.
I think comparing your view with OP's is good evidence that "what's fun" is subjective.

edit: rewording
Dlareh
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by Dlareh »

Some people like checkers, most around here prefer chess.
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
Doctor Sticks
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by Doctor Sticks »

I am indeed a huge fan of chess (rated player). That might be why Reliable Damage appeals to me more, since I can figure out the best moves that will result in the least wounds on my side. Where otherwise, sometimes I am just at the mercy of RNG.

That said, I think Red Fog needs to be turned off, as otherwise it is too easy to render aliens harmless with an alpha strike with this mod. That, and a slight tweak to the skill trees, since RD makes perks like Grazing Fire and Walk Fire completely useless.
Dlareh
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by Dlareh »

Managing bad RNG outcomes is a skill. You prefer using less of it and calculating a more straightforward problem (checkers). Which is fine, mods like RD are there for people with your preference.

Red Fog is off by default, enabling it is generally regarded as helpful to the player.
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
Doctor Sticks
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by Doctor Sticks »

Generally, but it is sometimes very painful, when your soldier becomes slower and can't make it to the evac zone. That said, the enemy does suffer many more wounds that you, so it is logical that Red Fog helps the player mode.
VanTheMan
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by VanTheMan »

Dlareh wrote:Managing bad RNG outcomes is a skill. You prefer using less of it and calculating a more straightforward problem (checkers). Which is fine, mods like RD are there for people with your preference.
You understand there's no RNG in either of those games right? Both players are also human and each side only moves one piece at a time in those. So I'm really not understanding your comparison at all, but I'm kind of getting the impression that you think playing with reliable damage is intellectually inferior, and it's offending me a little bit.
Dlareh
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by Dlareh »

You understand what an analogy is, right?

What I'm saying here is that using RD results in simpler problems to solve/calculate.
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
VanTheMan
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by VanTheMan »

Yes, I'm saying I don't understand yours.

If anything Xcom with RD is like chess where each side moves every piece every turn, and Xcom with RNG is like that with dice rolls added for every attempt to capture a piece. Even the best player in the world wouldn't win every match that they could skill-wise, they'd just be the best because they win the most on aggregate. (kinda like Hearthstone)

Personally in a single player game I think it saves time to eliminate the losing for the sake of it. I get campaign fatigue from retreading my ground because of losses of soldiers/missions/regions. I'd rather lose to myself in games, not dice rolls, it's just expedient. I don't really agree that it's simpler, you just have to repeat the same logic process less times. Take high ground, use aid protocol, throw flashbang, evac if it doesn't go well. With RNG, if that doesn't work once, you just do the same thing repeatedly and win on average. With RD, you do it once and it gives you that average value outright - all the mod does is take the things that are proper risk mitigation strategy (the things that are what it means to be doing xcom right) anyway and make them higher flat value.

I see Xcom's RNG as fluff, only there for dramatic effect. For the record I don't play with RD, ~700 hours in this game, because I LOVE the drama. But I take the position that it means very little for the game, on the whole.
Garthor
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by Garthor »

It is not a 1 to 1 comparison. He is saying that having to account for different possibilities due to RNG makes for a deeper game. As an easy example: the ordering of your actions matters more because you don't KNOW what the end result of each action will be, so you have to order actions based on various priorities of safety and flexibility. Reliable Damage removes this consideration and makes the game simpler, because there are less possibilities to consider with each turn.

Obviously, you can play the game however you want and have no obligation to defend it to anybody.
mattprice516
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by mattprice516 »

Not checkers vs chess, people. Chess vs poker. Both highly skill-based. Neither inherently better. I and plenty of other people prefer to play a game with risk management as a fundamental part of the game. Some people (OP included) prefer a more deterministic game.

Let's not argue for the sake of arguing. To those who prefer default LW2 I'd remind you that someone not preferring rng in their game doesn't make them dumb or less sophisticated. To those (like OP) who prefer to eliminate the rng I'd remind you that a game with rng isn't "no skill" (as evidenced by the fact that there are obviously some players who are much better than others at LW2, which wouldn't be possible if rng took away all the skill).

It's a single player game, do what you want and quit trying to feel superior to other people. S'pointless. :P
Doctor Sticks
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by Doctor Sticks »

The Poker vs Chess comparison is pretty neat.

Thinking back, the idea of the post was just me saying that it is very hard to go back to "vanilla LW2", after some measure of comfort that RD provides. There is enough randomness in the damage spread in RD that it is not "pure math", it all does in the end is eliminate the extreme scenarios of both great luck, and great misfortune.

After modifying the perk trees a tad (mainly Ranger and Gunner), I have reached a good balance where I can have some reliability, but things can still go wrong (as is par for the course in LW2).

I tip my hat to those tactical maniacs who can play this mod in Legend, and without Reliable Damage. They would be among the people to consider, should Earth have need for a real Commander. I would be one of those civilians that gets blown up by a stray rocket. And of course Mattprice is right, neither approach is "superior", it is a matter of taste. Do you like Poker or Chess more?
deaconivory
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by deaconivory »

Doctor Sticks wrote:The Poker vs Chess comparison is pretty neat.

Do you like Poker or Chess more?
OMG, do not get Matt started on that topic, you could be here for weeks! :D
koso
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Re: I have been spoiled by Reliable Damage

Post by koso »

VanTheMan wrote:Yes, I'm saying I don't understand yours.
Charitably, Dlarhe is saying that much like checkers requires less skill than chess, playing deterministic xcom requires less skill than rng xcom. Relatedly, checkers is less complex than chess, much like deterministic xcom is less complex than rng xcom.

That said, checkers (assuming you're playing with competitive rules, ie forced jumps) is actually a much deeper game than it gets credit for. I actually prefer it over chess as it plays faster, is easier to pick up for a newbie, and--unless you are on the extreme end of skill--has tactical depth that you're not going to exhaust.

As for whether deterministic xcom is easier than rng xcom, I'd say both are viable as proved by the existence of hard deterministic games. The game would just have to be redesigned with it in mind.
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