Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

fowlJ
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:45 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by fowlJ »

Antifringe wrote:I want to modify something I said earlier. It looks like aliens do get range bonuses, but only against flanked targets, which is different from how XCOM aim rules work. Perfect Information correctly displays this bonus when it is relevant.
That's... utterly bizarre if true. I have absolutely no idea why the range bonuses would not be applied to the AI in the exact same way as they are to XCOM, especially since they function correctly if you happen to take control of an enemy unit for any reason (and it's not that the bonuses are explicitly team-dependent either, because if you mind controlled an enemy in vanilla they'd have no range bonuses, per the relevant WeaponData config).
Antifringe
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:52 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Antifringe »

So I retested after seeing your post and the aliens do seem to be getting range bonuses after all. I don't know what to say, because I am positive that they weren't getting them before. I have seen very knowledgeable modders claim that aliens don't get range bonuses, and very knowledgeable modders claim that they do, so there may be something complex going on here.

EDIT:

Trying to figure this one out. It looks like aliens get their own range table, but it's inferior to the XCOM rifle table. It's possible that this is what confused me, since XCOM starts getting bonuses before the aliens do. There is also the fact that it is surprisingly difficult to do range controlled tests, since aliens will frequently pass up a shot at even an exposed soldier to do a double move instead.
Kyrsoh
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:53 am

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Kyrsoh »

I do not think that there is a cheat for the aliens after 1.3 update. I added a simple example above in my last comment about the 'Average Joe' in High Cover. I played the game a lot and I played differently from the 1.2 version and YES, there are more hits against me but it is a fair business, not cheating.

In my opinion, players suffer from more hits because

- You have to fight more missions in 1.3 (and later updates). You can't sneak half of your objectives like before. More fights mean more hits on both sides, and this is a new experience for most players.
- People I know are using the Graze Band (at the normal 10%) which means the enemy has 10% more chance to hit their soldiers. Negative Dodge and Defense stats make it even worse. The grazing mechanics are good if you set Graze Band to 0 because grazing means that a quick and agile character can dodge a hit for less damage, a bulky creature or soldier can be critically injured from a normal shot. The standard grazing chance (the Graze Band) is stupid and makes the game's tactical layer more unpredictable. IF YOU WANT CORRECT HIT CHANCES, YOU HAVE TO SET THE GRAZE BAND TO ZERO!
- Long War players are used to the feeling that High Cover is a great protection and most aliens in LW1 used overwatch or suppression against targets in High Cover, they did not shoot with low chances. In LW2 this is a different story: the ADVENT soldiers are using a magnetic weapon which means they can simply destroy most cover elements with a few missed shots, so they are shooting constantly. As in my example above, the 'Average Joe' XCOM soldier has absolutely no chance against ADVENT is they have clear shots against him in High Cover. Without elevation and range bonuses, marking or negative Defense, an ADVENT Trooper will hit him in High Cover with 20% chance, an Officer will hit him with 30% chance which both are pretty high. Some people just do not do the math - and whining about chances when taking fire from uncontrolled enemies!
- XCOM is about controlling the tactical field just a real mission in real life military organizations. You have to KILL, WOUND, SUPPRESS, DISORIENT and OUTFLANK your foes BEFORE they can shoot back! This is the number one rule of firefights, cover is just simply not enough. If you have to take shots from a lot of uncontrolled enemies AFTER your turn, YOU JUST DO THE TACTICAL LAYER VERY WRONG. You have the first turn, you have the tools to scout the battlefield with scanners, concealed squad members, noises and elevated positions. You have the tools to distract the enemy with explosion sounds, suppressors and silent sword/knife/beatdown skills. If you think that firing from a High Cover element to another is a good idea... Face the consequences!

I think most players just do not understand that on higher difficulties (Commander and Legend) they have to face enemies that are more skilled (have better stats and weapons) than their soldiers. You have to outmaneuver and control them because YOU CAN'T OUTGUN THEM!
macharius39
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 7:03 am

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by macharius39 »

johnnylump wrote:Specifically, we made that change in 1.3 so the Graze band works properly for the alien team, but no, we are not intentionally cheating in favor of the AI with those settings. Players should definitely be seeing more grazes against XCOM, because the upper half of the graze band was being reverted to a miss in 1.2 and earlier. Anyway, we're keeping an eye on this thread.
I posted that ADVENT Advanced Officers never miss if they mark a target and fire at it in the same turn. Doesn't matter what range, cover type, etc. They never miss. And it's usually a full hit not a graze. It's forced me to prioritize killing them making me take risks I would prefer not to take. Maybe you could look into it. Thank you for the mod and the hard work.

EDIT - Ok, one just did miss. However, that's the first time I've seen it happen in about 20 missions. Is there some hidden buff that we're not shown granted by the mark that could throw mods off?
Last edited by macharius39 on Wed May 24, 2017 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
justdont
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:36 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by justdont »

macharius39 wrote:I posted that ADVENT Advanced Officers never miss if they mark a target and fire at it in the same turn. Doesn't matter what range, cover type, etc. They never miss.
Yes, they do miss.
macharius39
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 7:03 am

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by macharius39 »

justdont wrote:
macharius39 wrote:I posted that ADVENT Advanced Officers never miss if they mark a target and fire at it in the same turn. Doesn't matter what range, cover type, etc. They never miss.
Yes, they do miss.
Very, very, very rarely mate. And they usually hit for full damage, not grazes. Maybe there's some extra debuff/buff that we're not shown?
cryptc
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:35 am

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by cryptc »

I too had the feeling on 1.3 release that aliens was hitting me way more than likely... but since then it's started evening out, so either it was something that was fixed, or it was just confirmation bias...
Lyzak
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Lyzak »

Kyrsoh wrote:(snip)
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I personally would not be wasting my breath complaining about being hit through full cover if the only defense I was using was full cover. The reason I joined in the conversation was because I felt that I was observing an abnormally high number of especially improbable ADVENT shots making contact 1) for full damage 2) potentially critting 3) despite the target unit being impaired by a disorient or a suppression AND having to fire through full cover.

So in my personal defense, none of this to me is "Waah I'm not used to tactical because I stealthed all the missions in 1.2, why isn't full cover protecting me 100% of the time?!"

On that note, I've not been keeping careful track of my ADVENT's marksmanship track record since I commented. I'm unsure if I've noticed less of this, or if I've simply become accustomed to being smacked for full damage through full cover despite flashbanging the heck outa the enemy.
Kyrsoh
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:53 am

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Kyrsoh »

Lyzak: I am understand this and I do not say that your statements are incorrect. This is a modded mod with different overwrites for every different players, so there can be a lot of bugs, including your absolutely unimaginable hits from ADVENT against your soldiers.

You can be right and I do not want to insult anyone with my post.

I know a few people, who are playing the mod regularly. I watched a tons of videos of Long War 2 on Youtube. I played the game for hundreds hours and after all of these things, I just posted my experience and personal view of this topic. My friends are constantly whining about hit chances even after calculating the math themselves (and yes, Perfect Information and Additional Icons are correct most of the time).

I think I have a point if the players think through my two previous posts here.
Antifringe
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:52 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Antifringe »

I just, right now, got missed by an officer after he marked a soldier in low cover. He had a juicy 35% to hit, too. The effect isn't real man. I'm sorry. It's just confirmation bias.
Blathergut
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:16 am

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Blathergut »

The problem is not with aliens shooting through full cover.

The problem seems to be wounded aliens (the more damage the more noticeable the hitting through cover) with Red Fog applied AND disoriented. It seems like a sectoid w 1hp disoriented will always hit. I wondered if the disorientation + Red Fog was somehow applying incorrectly.
Nicklopez2005@gmail.com
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:56 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Nicklopez2005@gmail.com »

Well I can tell you first hand that my experiences weren't because I've been taking less soldiers on missions, and therefore, more aliens having the opportunity to shot... as some suggest. Nor is it because I'm working more missions... as someone suggests. I have soldiers standing up out of cover as if they're flanked(most of the time without the yellow shield and not flanked) and then getting critically hit and dropped from being one shot. I would ask those who are experiencing this to please watch for the animation of the character to see if they're putting their back to the cover or standing up as if they're out in the open. Because like i've said in previous posts on this thread, I've noticed the animation of my characters stand up out of cover at the end of my turn and although they have solid defense and behind full cover while another is just as close and behind half cover... they get targeted and then get smoked. If anyone else is noticing this, please let me know... I"m curious to know... and Less curious about this people who are saying everything is just whining. I have over 2,000 hours between the two XCOMs and I think something may be happening with soldiers not registered behind cover occasionally.
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
Posts: 364
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Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by chrisb »

Nicklopez2005@gmail.com wrote:Well I can tell you first hand that my experiences weren't because I've been taking less soldiers on missions, and therefore, more aliens having the opportunity to shot... as some suggest. Nor is it because I'm working more missions... as someone suggests. I have soldiers standing up out of cover as if they're flanked(most of the time without the yellow shield and not flanked) and then getting critically hit and dropped from being one shot. I would ask those who are experiencing this to please watch for the animation of the character to see if they're putting their back to the cover or standing up as if they're out in the open. Because like i've said in previous posts on this thread, I've noticed the animation of my characters stand up out of cover at the end of my turn and although they have solid defense and behind full cover while another is just as close and behind half cover... they get targeted and then get smoked. If anyone else is noticing this, please let me know... I"m curious to know... and Less curious about this people who are saying everything is just whining. I have over 2,000 hours between the two XCOMs and I think something may be happening with soldiers not registered behind cover occasionally.
If you can get a save of this happening it would be very helpful to do some debugging with.
Alketi
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:11 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Alketi »

chrisb wrote:If you can get a save of this happening it would be very helpful to do some debugging with.
Chris, no save game to offer, but you can see this exact issue happen to Xavier on one of his recent missions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_1SEts ... e&t=35m47s
Antifringe
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Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Antifringe »

There are definitely broken cover pieces in the game. It's a bug from vanilla. Perfect Information correctly reports the odds on these cases too (i.e. the shot will be reported as something very high). I first noticed the problem when an alien took a 65% shot on a soldier that should have been in high cover.
Kyrsoh
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:53 am

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Kyrsoh »

There are broken tiles where you can't move. There are broken cover elements where your soldier seems to be in cover but the shield stays yellow (and the soldier is standing behind the low cover obstacle). These are bugs from the vanilla edition (such as the weird LOS situation on roofs). These can be solved by using the command console teleport order (just move away the soldier then move him/her back and cover works as intended).

In such cases aliens do not hit you through cover because the game is not realizing that you have cover.
Nicklopez2005@gmail.com
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:56 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Nicklopez2005@gmail.com »

Chrisb, I'll be sure to save the game next time I notice it. I also want to point out that now on 4 separate occasions since the release of 1.3... I've had flank shots on enemy units whey the were behind cover and I wasn't flanking them. In all cases, the animation was showing that standing up instead of behind the cover. Those who are saying there's bad cover tiles in vanilla... okay, fair enough. Luckily I haven't run into those in my 885 hours logged on XCOM 2 until just the past 2 weeks and now it's happened 4 times. Either I'm super lucky in all those hours or perhaps there may be something causing it to happen more frequently. It could very well be with another mod I'm using, but all are cosmetic besides the flank evolved mod. I did however save the game on the flank screenshot I have on page 3 and loaded it back up without the flank evolved mod "checked" and was still being flanked from cover that shouldn't have been flanked.

I also want to say the last time it happened was on the roof of the advent facility frequently used in the smash in grab mission that takes place in the forest and desert. It was on the roof of the first floor behind the full cover that is closest to the stairs on the left. I've put my soldiers in that same place and it wasn't a bad tile then... So does this happen only at random in your previous experiences? Because I couldn't replicate it...
Antifringe
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Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Antifringe »

Nicklopez2005@gmail.com wrote:Chrisb, I'll be sure to save the game next time I notice it. I also want to point out that now on 4 separate occasions since the release of 1.3... I've had flank shots on enemy units whey the were behind cover and I wasn't flanking them. In all cases, the animation was showing that standing up instead of behind the cover. Those who are saying there's bad cover tiles in vanilla... okay, fair enough. Luckily I haven't run into those in my 885 hours logged on XCOM 2 until just the past 2 weeks and now it's happened 4 times. Either I'm super lucky in all those hours or perhaps there may be something causing it to happen more frequently. It could very well be with another mod I'm using, but all are cosmetic besides the flank evolved mod. I did however save the game on the flank screenshot I have on page 3 and loaded it back up without the flank evolved mod "checked" and was still being flanked from cover that shouldn't have been flanked.

I also want to say the last time it happened was on the roof of the advent facility frequently used in the smash in grab mission that takes place in the forest and desert. It was on the roof of the first floor behind the full cover that is closest to the stairs on the left. I've put my soldiers in that same place and it wasn't a bad tile then... So does this happen only at random in your previous experiences? Because I couldn't replicate it...
I am going to suggest that you were indeed either super lucky, or you just didn't notice it because there wasn't anything to focus your attention on it. I ran into bugged cover tiles all the time in vanilla and in all versions of LW. It is definitely not new, and it was definitely not rare before. I even have mental categories for all of the different kinds of broken cover I've seen

1) Cover items that are visually present but otherwise missing. You can move through them, and the shield icons don't even appear. Seems to happen with stumps and trees.

2) Cover items that are missing cover on one side, but otherwise behave correctly. The shield will not show up on the bugged side, but the others work fine. I suspect that this is something that happens where an item appears on the boundary of a parcel, but I'm just speculating.

3) Cover items that report as cover, but fail to actually give cover when you move onto them. These are the worst. The big vans do this a lot, and I've learned to check people's animations before committing. They don't even provide cover against detection, which is the reason that I first starting noticing these problems.

4) Cover items that don't work at first, but start working if you refresh your soldier's position with the console. No idea why these happen.
Nicklopez2005@gmail.com
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Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Nicklopez2005@gmail.com »

Antifringe, you may very well be right that I hadn't noticed it before because you have to pay close attention to your troops animations, but the main reason I noticed it recently was because of how many times I was getting one shot from behind full cover and it's happened numerous times over the past 2 weeks. And that still doesn't explain the 4 times I've now seen enemies that registered as flanked over the past 2 week when they're behind full cover. That's something I definitely would've remembered and I can't recall any cases where that it's happened up until the past couple of weeks.
sacho
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:08 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by sacho »

Antifringe wrote: 3) Cover items that report as cover, but fail to actually give cover when you move onto them. These are the worst. The big vans do this a lot, and I've learned to check people's animations before committing. They don't even provide cover against detection, which is the reason that I first starting noticing these problems.
My favourite ones are several high-cover cars. The peek-out tile is high cover, but the tile right next to it is no cover, leading to many wonderful WTF moments when I try to stack up soldiers behind them.

Cars. Never again.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
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Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Tuhalu »

I found another full cover fail situation yesterday. It was one of those APC type vehicles with a full cover block diagonal to the corner. I moved a soldier up into what reported as double cover. I was spotted from the other side of the cover and out of cover from both directions. Really rude.

After a reload I was able to activate the pod from a different tile. I then confirmed that any unit moving into the faulty location would get red shields from both bits of cover, despite every enemy being on the other side of the cover.
unkin24@gmail.com
Posts: 6
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Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by unkin24@gmail.com »

Drogmyre wrote:Here's my take on the issue, it's a bit different than blaming the RNG.

I really really hate the AI.

Like, FUCK the AI.

In the first Long War, enemies were actually fairly unique depending on type. You could intimidate them in some cases, such as Floaters or Sectoids, you could keep them locked down as they respected suppression and knew that a 5% shot was significantly worse than using their own Suppression on you or running the Opportunist OW shot from your gunner/infantry/medic (your suppressor).

In LW2, and XCOM 2 as a whole, the AI is completely borked.

They respect absolutely nothing, and for some units (fuck you stun lancers and sidewinders) this is totally fine, as it's their job to get in your face.

There is absolutely no excuse for ADVENT and the Ayys to be completely suicidal though, which they are. They will take a 5% to hit in low cover rather than hunkering, suppressing, doing literally ANYTHING ELSE. I'm not sure if this is intended behavior, and I hope it's not, because it's goddamn frustrating to lose a soldier to a VERY lucky shot through full cover when, by all logic, attempting that shot was a fucking terrible decision. They'll run a Suppression when they're 17 tiles away in full cover and are in absolutely no danger whatsoever, UNLESS they run the suppression like idiots to take a 5% to hit shot. Like, why would you do that, that's stupid!

But ADVENT gets away with making terrible decisions all the time because they're legions of their suicidal brethren taking 5% shots at you in full cover.

I really don't like that aspect of the AI. I wish they'd suppress me more, make me think more about how to remove their overwatch or suppression, how to outmaneuver them when they're using special abilities.

As it is, they just shoot at me, and I hope I don't get unlucky. There's really not that much interaction there, the AI is just really dumb.

Yeah I was just thinking this all this week. I was blaming cover, but i'm pretty sure it's the AI. How can this be fixed? Does a better AI mod make it any better.
Nicklopez2005@gmail.com
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:56 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Nicklopez2005@gmail.com »

So I decided to take a break for a week because of these cover bugs that i've been frequently getting. I decided to give it a go tonight and the very first mission was a smash and grab... where I encountered my 3 flank/full cover bug now on these mission types. Here's a nice screenshot and I can provide my save file, just let me know how you would like me to send it
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warlordmb
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by warlordmb »

yesterday i was in a fight and had Advent officer with aim of 57, 2 of 13 health left and had been flashbanged fire at 1 of my guys in full cover and hit and crit for 9 points total - taking 3 abalative and 6 health of my guy leaving him on 2 health. I have noticed a much higher occurence of enemies with low health left and disorientated or just having very low health - i.e. 1 hp left of 14, hitting my guys in full cover. I have played enough of LW 2 1.2 to be seeing something different in number of hits and damage taken in 1.3 when in full cover.
I have noticed also a much higher chance of my guys hitting enemies in full cover when to hit chance is at or under 20%.

I use red fog - all
Sikhtar
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Aliens hitting me frequently through full cover

Post by Sikhtar »

I took a break from the game too, and today I made the mistake to give it another chance.

On the very first mission, in the second round of engagement I was hit 4 consecutive times in full cover by disoriented units. Perfect Information reported three 9% shots and one 5% shot, all landed like my soldiers where standing still in the open (I didn't experience any visual bug btw, the soldiers where correctly using the proper animation and have the full shield icon as they were supposed to).

I don't know if this worths to be reported - I guess some investigation has already been made at this point, so if nothing has come up so far, well... *shrugs*

Back to another break from the game I guess.
Last edited by Sikhtar on Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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