1.3 Changelog got updated.

fowlJ
Posts: 198
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by fowlJ »

Antifringe wrote:
wobuffet wrote:
bilfdoffle wrote:
No, you learn what it is at the end of the mission. Also, the rewards are randomly chosen at the start, and there's nothing preventing multiples of the same reward
Right. I was making a suggestion, not trying to describe how the mod works now.

Do you think the way it works now is more fun/engaging than finding out what your loot is right away would be?
I strongly suspect that the way it works now has everything to do with the realities of modding and nothing to do with deliberate design decisions. X2 already has a tactical loot system, and that system already announces the loot on pick up. But the loot you get from drops are items, whereas the loot you are getting from Smash and Grabs are mostly resources. That may sound like a trivial distinction, but from a code perspective, it's probably a huge difference.
I don't know the technical details of this change in particular, but by and large resources are treated the same as items in the tactical game. As a matter of fact, there's a mod on the workshop that adds them to timed loot drops - they even have their own placeholder model, where a whole bunch of storage boxes explode out of an enemy when they drop loot.
sarge945
Posts: 124
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by sarge945 »

Zyxpsilon wrote:
Antifringe wrote:... I don't think alien defense is being lowered to "make the game easier," it's being changed because getting 50-70% shots on flanked opponents in open terrain was annoying and not fun.
Yet.. the same could be said of the Ultra-Viper (Naja?) Aiming skills that persistantly hit 99% of their shots at anyone standing even into High-Covers & dealing high damages if not immediate outright kills!! That is far beyond GRAZE principles, btw.
Well, they ARE related to thin-men, and we all know thin men have insane accuracy
Zyxpsilon wrote:I suspect this "flaw" is caused by some XCom soldiers receiving (very) bad Defense stats that simply nullify a fraction of the Cover advantages or how that system calculations are supposed to work under various conditions including the Viper case above.
Yeah XCOM soldiers having up to -10 defense is insane at times. They will get hit often even in high cover and smoke.
LordYanaek
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by LordYanaek »

I spent some time reading those. I see a lot of discussion about the tactical changes and whether or not a class got "nerfed" but little talk about the impressive strategic changes.
  • Liberation will become much more important to give you some free network towers (those will become expensive real soon) and as an additional option to remove "doom pips". That will drastically change how the game plays, especially on high difficulty where the most efficient strategy was often to liberate 1 region and then ignore others and rush the storyline. Less rush as expansion will be slowed by expensive towers and more liberation will totally change the dynamic of the game. Games might no longer end with coil.
  • Overall, it will be harder to slow down AVATAR to huge amounts due to changes to Supply Raids and Troop ambushes but doom will accumulate slightly slower and will be slightly easier to remove.
  • Changes to Retaliations and Vigilance will make "gaming" the system harder for those mathematically inclined Legend players. I don't think it will affect us, common mortal, that much :lol: Overall it seems like retaliations can be more punishing (rebels spread around further) but less common if i understand correctly.
  • Of course, there is the new smash and grab to gain resources.
  • Supply Raid and Troop Ambushes will likely become a rare chance with both reduced detection and a big increase in difficulty at <100% (no concealment) so it will be hard to reduce Strength and bodies will be precious. Selling a lot of those will probably be a bad idea.
I'm not trying to judge those changes, just put them all together. We'll have to see how it plays before judging.
Antifringe
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Antifringe »

I agree that the strategy layers changes are quite interesting.

The free network tower happens when you complete the tower mission, but before you actually liberate. This ends up being a backdoor buff to supply raid farming, since it makes stacking Intel in high vigilance regions easier.

I'm interested in just how much lower the detection thresholds are for troop columns and reinforcements. I actually preferred Guerrilla War's model for corpse retrieval, where you can a small trickle of select corpses each mission, vs the all or nothing model of LW2. Not suggesting a change here (we can't really alter something this basic this far into development), just mentioning a preference.

I like the changes to retaliation. The rigid threshold system was very gamey and is an example of what I call "security through obscurity" design. It only really worked if the player didn't understand the hidden mechanics, but if the player discovers them, there is always an obvious best possible move. The new system means that more activity means more risk, period.

Changes to vigilance decay means that it will be easier to cool off newly minted regions. It also has complex effects on Avatar progress. You can effectively get more vigilance by keeping your large havens active, but you have to eat more retals to do that.

I really like the changes to the global cooldowns on Dark Events. I actually hacked my files to achieve a similar effect. It was demoralizing to stop a DE, only to have a replacement DE spawn immediately.
DonCrabio
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by DonCrabio »

From point of view of average player, like me, this is strange set of changes, to say at least.

1. Not only cheap tricks like Chain Lighting or Faceoff was fixed, but all means of mass control or mass killing was heavily nerfed. How player are supposed to engage large pods on combat heavy missions now? HQ already my least favorite mission type, because it long and boring, now it will be overwatch hell for 2 hours.
2. Retaliations unavoidable now, right? This is sad, I hate this mission type, but before I had some influence on them.
3. Supply Raids and Troop Columns harder to detect, really? In my last campaign I had 1(!) Supply Raid and no UFO's with timer long enough to get to 100% infiltration in 8 months.
4. PSI Ops - well, this guys don't fit in small squads at all. Great effort needed to level them up to receive very situational unit. I don't see how 1.3 change it.

I have feeling, what game balanced around little group of hardcore players. This is pointless, hardcore players will find new ways to break the game and casual players like me will struggle.

I give it a try after release, anyway.
bilfdoffle
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by bilfdoffle »

DonCrabio wrote:1. Not only cheap tricks like Chain Lighting or Faceoff was fixed, but all means of mass control or mass killing was heavily nerfed. How player are supposed to engage large pods on combat heavy missions now? HQ already my least favorite mission type, because it long and boring, now it will be overwatch hell for 2 hours.
2. Retaliations unavoidable now, right? This is sad, I hate this mission type, but before I had some influence on them.
3. Supply Raids and Troop Columns harder to detect, really? In my last campaign I had 1(!) Supply Raid and no UFO's with timer long enough to get to 100% infiltration in 8 months.
4. PSI Ops - well, this guys don't fit in small squads at all. Great effort needed to level them up to receive very situational unit. I don't see how 1.3 change it.

I have feeling, what game balanced around little group of hardcore players. This is pointless, hardcore players will find new ways to break the game and casual players like me will struggle.

1 - faceoff and chain lightning still work really well, and actually haven't been nerfed at all outside of concealment. There's also a lot of other AoE abilities in the game still. Most importantly, though, is the fact that fighting large groups is far less common in 1.3, unless you let reinforcements go crazy or otherwise go looking for epic battles.

2. While retals can be more common, I've found for veteran that overall the frequency is similar to 1.2. The difference is that you get a variety of them instead of just the intel ones.

3. This is probably playstyle dependent and largely unaffected by these changes
- putting more rebels on intel + scientist advisor + avenger scanning to help with detection
- running several missions to build up vigilance in a region, so advent tries to move strength there, so you have supply raids to find
- searching for supply raids in higher strength areas
- do more 'find a lead' missions (that don't have the intel package reward) to uncover landed UFO raids
- consider using intel boosts to make these high value missions more doable.

4. Psi actually fit in small squads pretty well now. They're very versatile in 1.3.
Tuhalu
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Tuhalu »

Xwynns 1.3 campaign has begun. Probably worth checking out to see how some of the changes play out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm6Han6HGII
Psieye
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Psieye »

DonCrabio wrote:From point of view of average player, like me, this is strange set of changes, to say at least.

1. Not only cheap tricks like Chain Lighting or Faceoff was fixed, but all means of mass control or mass killing was heavily nerfed. How player are supposed to engage large pods on combat heavy missions now? HQ already my least favorite mission type, because it long and boring, now it will be overwatch hell for 2 hours.
There's more than one point that's strange with this statement. I think it boils down to "I'm not comfortable fighting large pods with minimal risk of injury". I don't think forcing average players to learn good tactics is a downside. We'll see how 1.3 plays out, but coping with large pods (that never get reinforcement drops) by prioritising targets is part of LW2's game.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
DonCrabio
Posts: 90
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by DonCrabio »

bilfdoffle wrote:
1 - faceoff and chain lightning still work really well, and actually haven't been nerfed at all outside of concealment. There's also a lot of other AoE abilities in the game still. Most importantly, though, is the fact that fighting large groups is far less common in 1.3, unless you let reinforcements go crazy or otherwise go looking for epic battles.

2. While retals can be more common, I've found for veteran that overall the frequency is similar to 1.2. The difference is that you get a variety of them instead of just the intel ones.

3. This is probably playstyle dependent and largely unaffected by these changes
- putting more rebels on intel + scientist advisor + avenger scanning to help with detection
- running several missions to build up vigilance in a region, so advent tries to move strength there, so you have supply raids to find
- searching for supply raids in higher strength areas
- do more 'find a lead' missions (that don't have the intel package reward) to uncover landed UFO raids
- consider using intel boosts to make these high value missions more doable.

4. Psi actually fit in small squads pretty well now. They're very versatile in 1.3.
1. I can't see how you can not to fight many enemies at once on HQ or golden path missions. With nerfed flashbangs and suppression it can be too much for me.

2. I will never do supply or recruit in non-liberated regions in 1.3. I think many players will do the same, can't see anyone enjoying more retaliations.

3. Well, I have all rebels on intel job, usually it just 13. I got many 1-2 days supply raids, but this is it. Maybe I'm just unlucky.

4. I take your word for it. I will be just happy if Psi become viable.
stefan3iii
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by stefan3iii »

DonCrabio wrote:
bilfdoffle wrote: 2. I will never do supply or recruit in non-liberated regions in 1.3. I think many players will do the same, can't see anyone enjoying more retaliations.
I interpreted the retal changes as something that would reduce the frequency, and increase the variety. In 1.2 I'd switch large havens over to supply in mid game because I'd be getting more missions than I can handle anyway so no reason to do intel everywhere, and I'd just DROWN in supply retals. They're easy missions, but they'd get a little tiresome after a while. So much so that starting in late game I'd switch havens into hiding just so I don't have to do them for sanity sake, even though it's bad strategy.
Psieye
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Psieye »

stefan3iii wrote: I interpreted the retal changes as something that would reduce the frequency, and increase the variety.
I'll be glad to see some supply retals (never had one) but I don't want to see a recruit retal again. Hopefully they balanced it out a bit. Then again, the one time I had one I was behind on the tech curve: mag vs M3 Advent. The high Advent strength didn't help.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Jacke
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Jacke »

Antifringe wrote:I actually preferred Guerrilla War's model for corpse retrieval, where you can a small trickle of select corpses each mission, vs the all or nothing model of LW2. Not suggesting a change here (we can't really alter something this basic this far into development), just mentioning a preference.
As can be seen by looking at that mod, it's now unsupported as it was split into 3 separate mods. The corpse part became the mod "Extract Corpses", an excellent mod that is completely believable. I metamod it to prevent XCOM carrying the heavy aliens like Mutons and Andromedons, but the human-weight ADVENT corpses are equivalent to what XCOM can already carry.

As to the impact of 1.3 changes, I think many of them are necessary. Some have me a bit concerned, but I will have to see in actual play how they all fit together before I can really judge them.
LordYanaek
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by LordYanaek »

Psieye wrote: I'll be glad to see some supply retals (never had one) but I don't want to see a recruit retal again. Hopefully they balanced it out a bit. Then again, the one time I had one I was behind on the tech curve: mag vs M3 Advent. The high Advent strength didn't help.
Recruit retaliation is not that hard once you get how it play (unless you are badly behind in tech but then any mission is hard).
The trick is not to rush to the evac. Reinforcements are mostly or entirely scripted and there is no time limit. You don't want to advance when RNFs are incoming and you don't want to fight multiple pods because there's a risk you won't finish them in time before more RNFs arrive. Advance carefully whenever no RNFs are inbound. Hopefully the new UI will help you determine when the next drop will occur so you have more than 1 turn to adapt your strategy.
Also this change should help slightly
-Recruit Raids won't have turrets on the map
At first i thought recruit was the hardest raid but now i think it might actually be Intel. Or at least in Intel raid, there is an uncontrolled risk for T0 activation that can make your rebels life really miserable.
Psieye
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Psieye »

LordYanaek wrote:Hopefully the new UI will help you determine when the next drop will occur so you have more than 1 turn to adapt your strategy.
This will be the biggest helping factor, yes. I could not clear reinforcements fast enough half the time (due to low-tech) and every wave they get a little bigger. I rammed my head on a single recruit retal for a week (non-Ironman Veteran) with different squad configurations but it always boiled down to "you take too long clearing each wave". Towards the end of my paranoid overwatch creep, I was facing 8-drop reinforcements (the first drop was 4). The finishing blow was realising you have to hold out for a few turns after the rebels evac before you can get your soldiers out.

I guess the point is that recruit retal punishes low-tech more than most missions. Back then I wasn't doing 0% supply raids (nor did I have full labs up fast). The old stealth-meta let you get away with bad tech for Guerilla ops. Maps which don't have reinforcements can be slowly managed. But recruit retal is an 'egg-spoon race' against time: go too fast and you die, but go too slow and you still die.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Dwarfling
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Dwarfling »

From what I saw from Xwynns' first episode, yes pods are smaller, but he still had to fight the entire map on every mission (except on that 2nd VIP rescue where he super-lucked out). So I'm not seeing much of a change except now we'll have to fight on every map and missions with 4d of infiltration are almost no-go because you need a team of at least 4 to have a chance. I thought I could pull 3-mans on 1.3 if I brought a grenadier with flashbangs and just disabled everything while I got out but with the reduced radius I think this is just not feasible.
DonCrabio
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by DonCrabio »

I'm not 100% sure, what bad activation's in Xwynns video related to new pod spreading mechanics, but I definitely can see what handling this bad activation's become somewhat harder just because flashbang radius nerf.

Imagine same late game activation with Gatekeeper, this will be instant squad wipe.
Tuhalu
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Tuhalu »

Late game activation with Gatekeeper, you just shoot him with your Assaults Arc Thrower for a stun or use your Psi Ops stasis to bubble it for a turn. The changed to flashbangs just make you more likely to use other CC options rather than rely on a single crutch.

Don't take Xwynns play in his first 1.3 video as gospel on how hard those missions are to play correctly. He made it hard on himself in the Extract by fighting straight through the middle of the enemy forces. He got a little unlucky in the first Smash'n'Grab with the random bleed out (and who even knows if its intended for a freaking MEC to turn up in March on a Smash'n'Grab anyway?). The second Smash'n'Grab was a mix of greed and bad luck (the evac should probably never appear right on top of the building in the middle of the enemy forces!).
Frei_Ninjesus
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Frei_Ninjesus »

Right. I think he got specially unlucky with that evac right in the middle of 4 pods. Even then it looked like he would at least make it out with one guy and a little bit of loot, but the risk he took on that one didn't pay off sadly. If anything, at least it made for a very edge-of-the-seat moment.
sarge945
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by sarge945 »

I actually like the new pod mechanics. In 1.2 it seemed like you would either get 4 pods at once, or they would be extremely far apart, and it was really random how each game would play out. Which had a really weird and unbalanced effect on mission difficulty

In 1.3 it seems to be (based entirely on xwynns videos) more consistent with the pod placements so you don't get random pods over near the edge of the map that never see combat.

Sure that makes the game harder, but it's also a lot less random with the difficulty, which I am a huge fan of
boy_cad
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by boy_cad »

LordYanaek wrote: ... [changes to the 'Liberation' mechanic] will drastically change how the game plays, especially on high difficulty where the most efficient strategy was often to liberate 1 region and then ignore others and rush the storyline. Less rush as expansion will be slowed by expensive towers and more liberation will totally change the dynamic of the game. Games might no longer end with coil.
Props for this extension; definitely a good idea, as I see it.

Extending overall game duration was something I was specifically hoping for. I was even going to post asking about mods which would slow the strategic game's progression without skewing balance. I've read a few people saying how the game ended a little abruptly, was rushed at the end, and in general forced a wind-up too soon for their preferences... and I know this would have been me if I'd kept going with my current (modded. legend 1.2) run.

I really like to play a single, long, long campaign... with lots of character development but sustained resistance. Im not going anywhere, after all. But it is tricky to keep the mechanics properly engaged over so much development. I hope this change you mention helps.
stefan3iii
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by stefan3iii »

Has anything been done to address suicide tactics? The most egregious being Hack Workstation, which can be done by any rookie pretty easily.
Clibanarius
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Clibanarius »

stefan3iii wrote:Has anything been done to address suicide tactics? The most egregious being Hack Workstation, which can be done by any rookie pretty easily.
Don't you need to pass the baton in the case of a suicidal rookie hacking the terminal? I thought doing so placed the objective in that soldier's inventory and, should they die, another will need to pick it up for the mission to be a success.
fowlJ
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by fowlJ »

stefan3iii wrote:Has anything been done to address suicide tactics? The most egregious being Hack Workstation, which can be done by any rookie pretty easily.
I don't know how much it will change, but I assume it will be affected at least somewhat by the general nerfs to solo/duo missions:

- With more pods roaming the map in general (and it looks like more pods near objectives in particular), it's supposed to be more difficult to sneak a soldier all the way to the objective without activating, so that you actually need to do some fighting.

- From xwynn's videos, it seems like infiltration bonuses for single soldiers are significantly less extreme compared to squads now, so you need either a somewhat acceptable mission timer or some level of investment (suppressors, chameleon suits, perks) to actually infiltrate a mission, under-infiltration making it even less likely you'll be able to reach the objective without incident.

The reduced power of flashbangs may also limit your ability to reach the objective. A smaller radius and some lategame enemies having resistance limits the degree to which you can lock enemies down with them at all, and a slightly smaller aim penalty makes you less safe in doing so. I believe smoke grenades have also received a small defence reduction.
Tuhalu
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Tuhalu »

Clibanarius wrote:
stefan3iii wrote:Has anything been done to address suicide tactics? The most egregious being Hack Workstation, which can be done by any rookie pretty easily.
Don't you need to pass the baton in the case of a suicidal rookie hacking the terminal? I thought doing so placed the objective in that soldier's inventory and, should they die, another will need to pick it up for the mission to be a success.
On Hack the Workstation you just need to Hack the Workstation (it's right there on the tin). What you are thinking of is Retrieve the Item objectives.
Clibanarius
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Re: 1.3 Changelog got updated.

Post by Clibanarius »

Tuhalu wrote:
Clibanarius wrote:
stefan3iii wrote:Has anything been done to address suicide tactics? The most egregious being Hack Workstation, which can be done by any rookie pretty easily.
Don't you need to pass the baton in the case of a suicidal rookie hacking the terminal? I thought doing so placed the objective in that soldier's inventory and, should they die, another will need to pick it up for the mission to be a success.
On Hack the Workstation you just need to Hack the Workstation (it's right there on the tin). What you are thinking of is Retrieve the Item objectives.
That would be what I was thinking of, yep.
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