Balancing EXO/WAR with Predator/Warden

[Doctor Sticks]

Currently, EXO suits are somewhat overpowered, mainly because they allow you to use Shredder Guns (and cannons), for what is a relatively minor cost. The trade-off was supposed to be the fact that they offer less protection.

But as we have learned, a Shredder Gun is much, much better than one extra armor, and as such, I basically never build predator, but just give everyone EXO (WAR, if i ever get around to it).

Vanilla had a better idea on this, since they made EXO suits a Proving Grounds project, and so, these suits were much more expensive since Predator got applied to all units with one upgrade. But in return, they could provide better protection and heavy equipment.

I would suggest that maybe we do the same. Make Exo and War suits more expensive (they should cost Elerium Cores), but make them really, really effective. WAR suits should be basically the ultimate battle armor, with heavy weapons, excellent protection, and shieldwall. So let's move them to the PG, and up their stats a bit to compensate for the added cost. Suddenly being able to field 6 guys with Shredder Guns is pretty unbalanced imho. EXO could perhaps even give a boost to mobility, while WAR gives Shieldwall and perhaps a small, built in healing (similar to Stasis, but less good).

Thoughts?

[Tuhalu]

They are more likely to just nerf the Shred Gun and Shredstorm cannon into the ground. Currently, a Shredstorm Cannon shreds more armor, does more damage, has a better area of effect and range and punches through more terrain than a Plasma Grenade from a dedicated damage build grenadier or a Rocket from a rocket build technical.

Even if a Shredstorm only shredded 2 points of armor (down from 4), only reached out the 15 tiles (instead of 25!), only dealt 5-7 damage (down from 9-12) and only did environmental damage equal to a sapper grenade (13 in 1.3, down from 17), it would still feel like a very useful tool. This is basically as strong as the Shred Gun is currently.

[Doctor Sticks]

I really hope they don't just nerf them. By making EXO and WAR more expensive/better, it would also be an indirect nerf to those shred guns, because you couldn't field them as quickly.

Tbh, Shredstorm cannon should only be mountable on a WAR suit. That, combined with the WAR suit having better stats and maybe other abilites (and costing appropriately), it would create an incentive to invest into the ultimate armor (WAR suit + Shredstorm Cannon combo).

[darkerevent]

After watching a lot of Shredgun and Shredstorm (ab)use in my partner's campaign, I am concluding that the Shredstorm Cannon is mostly what needs the nerf. Its range and damage, together, are way too high.

Personally, I recommend nerfing its range to match the basic Shredder Gun but keep the damage severe. That makes it have a niche still and make sense on highly aggressive characters (e.g. assaults) but doesn't step on the toes of rockets and the like.

[RantingRodent]

Do the Shredder Gun and Shredstorm Cannon even fill any kind of utility gap in Long War 2 the way they do in Vanilla? Should a piece of equipment give you a perk that outclasses class perks that take significant time investments to access per soldier? Even toned down, these weapons are just flat out better than the Assault's AOE cone abilities, and that's supposed to be part of the Assault's specialty.

I feel like these are only in Long War 2 because they were in vanilla. There would be no impetus to actually add them to Long War 2 at all if they didn't already exist.

[Autoclave]

1. Make EXO/WAR a Technical exclusive armor.
2. Remove the cringeworthy wrist gauntlet from the game.
3. Change technical middle perks to EXO/WAR buffs.

Problem solved.

[Zaramnor]

1. Make EXO/WAR a Technical exclusive armor.
2. Remove the cringeworthy wrist gauntlet from the game.
3. Change technical middle perks to EXO/WAR buffs.

Problem solved.

I REALLY dislike this... I like theses armors on my gunner. It fits to their heavy weapon optic.

If you guys think, that shred gun is too powerful - just don't use it. There are God mode Console commands but do you use them, just because they are there? It's a Singleplayer game... Play as you think it's right and don't have all others to accept your playstyle.

I have an Exo on my Technican and one on my gunner. It looks nice and works pretty good. Still a lot of fun to play.

[Autoclave]

1. Make EXO/WAR a Technical exclusive armor.
2. Remove the cringeworthy wrist gauntlet from the game.
3. Change technical middle perks to EXO/WAR buffs.

Problem solved.

I REALLY dislike this... I like theses armors on my gunner. It fits to their heavy weapon optic.

If you guys think, that shred gun is too powerful - just don't use it. There are God mode Console commands but do you use them, just because they are there? It's a Singleplayer game... Play as you think it's right and don't have all others to accept your playstyle.

I have an Exo on my Technican and one on my gunner. It looks nice and works pretty good. Still a lot of fun to play.

Unless my gunner has AWC Salvo, I don't see a point in using EXO for them. Shredding? Check! AoE? Check! Cover distruction? Check! You got all the tools for your gunner already.

[LordYanaek]

1. Make EXO/WAR a Technical exclusive armor.
2. Remove the cringeworthy wrist gauntlet from the game.
3. Change technical middle perks to EXO/WAR buffs.

Problem solved.

Without completely rewriting the Technical tree i would also make the EXO/WAR limited to that class and allow them to choose Shredder/Shredstorm or the bonus Rocket/Fuel because it feels like that armor is an extension of the class. Currently the techs benefit the less from EXO because they can't use the Shredder gun so it's always better on other classes.

But a brutal nerf of the Shredder/Shredstorm would also mostly solve the issue. I'm usually not for brutal nerfs but those really deserve it. The alternative would be to have EXO cost much higher but it would hurt the technical who really want more rockets/fuel and is not OP with those.
I would say reduce the range of both, keep their damage and shred high (maybe not as high as now, but better than grenades) and have cover block them (like they do with Trench Gun/Street Sweeper), possibly being destroyed in the way but protecting the guy hiding behind. This would make them brutal but low(ish) range weapons while rockets and the currently ignored plasma blasters would be the long range options.

[seananigans]

What if they were pure shred/cover destruction with no, or negligible damage? While also probably nerfing Shredstorm range/width, I don't think it needs an upgrade from first tier.

Similar to Bunker Buster in utility, but more limited due to proximity and conal rather than huge radius spherical? Dunno.

[darkerevent]

I would say reduce the range of both, keep their damage and shred high (maybe not as high as now, but better than grenades) and have cover block them (like they do with Trench Gun/Street Sweeper), possibly being destroyed in the way but protecting the guy hiding behind. This would make them brutal but low(ish) range weapons while rockets and the currently ignored plasma blasters would be the long range options.

I would be on board with some combination of these changes too. I would appreciate the realism of the cover sort of "taking the hit" but ending up damaged or destroyed in the process. Currently it's just a bit too easy to delete whole swaths of cover with Shredstorms.

It's indeed a pity that the Plasma Blaster is so much worse than the weapon that comes before it. (Shockingly worse AoE, negligibly improved damage, and none of the cover annihilating madness that makes Shredstorm so good.)

[Zaramnor]

1. Make EXO/WAR a Technical exclusive armor.
2. Remove the cringeworthy wrist gauntlet from the game.
3. Change technical middle perks to EXO/WAR buffs.

Problem solved.

I REALLY dislike this... I like theses armors on my gunner. It fits to their heavy weapon optic.

If you guys think, that shred gun is too powerful - just don't use it. There are God mode Console commands but do you use them, just because they are there? It's a Singleplayer game... Play as you think it's right and don't have all others to accept your playstyle.

I have an Exo on my Technican and one on my gunner. It looks nice and works pretty good. Still a lot of fun to play.

Unless my gunner has AWC Salvo, I don't see a point in using EXO for them. Shredding? Check! AoE? Check! Cover distruction? Check! You got all the tools for your gunner already.

A guy with a big gun and a heavy Exo skeleton looks cool.