Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

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wobuffet
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Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by wobuffet »

Why aren't the corresponding numbers of enemies simply included in the text?
Alketi
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by Alketi »

+1

I'm guessing, but speaking as a UI designer, these issues normally occur because both the UI designers and the beta testers either know or are told what these words really mean, thus the problem never appears. Avoiding these problems requires another level of empathy that must be imagined by the experts for neophyte players, or actual testing on rookie players.

This is how UIs become confusing and require prior/expert knowledge.

Of course, there could be other explanations at play here, such as deliberately wanting to keep it vague (which, in this case, is foiled by tribal knowledge so what's the point?) or some issue with translations (which also seems unlikely due to the fact these are just numbers).
JoINrbs
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by JoINrbs »

6-9 what though? The missions are generated using Mission Schedules, but RNFs and Turrets aren't included in the Mission Schedules, so it's actually non-trivial to work out how many enemies can be on a mission. If you're looking at an Extremely Light Jailbreak something like "Extremely Light (8+)" would be considerably more accurate than "Extremely Light (6-9)", and when a new player plays something which says it'll have 6-9 enemies and then fights 16 they're probably going to be confused.

For full information you'd ideally have three fields, "Garrison on Ground", "Stationary Defenses on Ground", and "Reinforcement Speed" or something like that. Then you have to work out how to actually communicate those succinctly in all the supported languages and where to fit them on the squad select page and mission briefing page.

While all this has been going on you also need to remember that this is meant to be presenting the player with a Guerrilla War that they're meant to run and having perfect spreadsheet-like information readouts about what they're about to go up against may not actually do a great job of conveying that feeling to them. Maybe you need to develop systems which maintain the flavor of the game alongside what you've been doing (that's actually what the "Extremely Light" is to begin with; why doesn't it just say "6-9 Enemies" without the Extremely Light being there at all?). That's more work, more translation, more player feedback and following adjustments (a common criticism is that "Light" missions are actually very hard in early game and "Light" is misleading, but a solution to that is non-trivial. A threat level which was reported relative to XCOM's strength, maybe? How do we calculate XCOM's strength?), etc.

If people are going to get up in arms about hidden public information you might need to add RNG elements to enable procedural-generation of those things too. Some of them might be handled in vanilla code which there is incentive not to touch so that modders can mess with it without conflicting though.

So, all-told there could be a lot of hours spent on this. That's enough time to do lots of other really cool things, we're talking about a considerable opportunity cost. And then there might be bugs or other problems that have to get fixed further down the line.

I LOVE UI design. I've spent tons of time pitching ideas for UI in this game, some of which have made it in. For me it's one of the three most important parts of my enjoyment of the game. It's also an extremely time-intensive thing to get perfectly right though, and because this is a mod created with non-infinite programming hours on top of vanilla code which itself changes from time-to-time using environments which make UI design quite difficult it's one of the things which lags behind in my opinion. But yeah, there are reasons for that.
Dlareh
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by Dlareh »

The foundation of the calculations is the alert level, I think? Just displaying in parenthesis (Alert level: XX) would be nice; the player can gradually learn what that translates to.
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
Alketi
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by Alketi »

JoINrbs wrote:6-9 what though? The missions are generated using Mission Schedules, but RNFs and Turrets aren't included in the Mission Schedules, so it's actually non-trivial to work out how many enemies can be on a mission.
JoINrbs, thanks for the response and while everything you said is absolutely right, I would also suggest that you're overthinking it. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good when the alternative is nothing.

The names as listed, absent any context, have absolutely zero meaning. So, any number associated with them provides much needed information.

Yes, Light, to the novice implies an easy mission. Reality will be a harsh mistress when this assumption is carried to its conclusion. And if this results in deaths, due to a complete unawareness of the values behind their initial assumption, this won't engender any good feelings from the player toward the product.

We all have a chart somewhere with all the labels and their numerical ranges. Whether this is off by one because it doesn't include turrets and whether or not it includes other dynamic events (like reinforcements) is largely a different issue. By omitting this information the player is left to fend for himself and the information is carried forward as tribal knowledge/inside baseball. Message boards and YouTube are the documentation.

The most reliable way to find these kinds of issues is to not only test a product with novices, but also to not coach the novices when testing.

In other words, if I test the product on my girlfriend and have her run a mission that says "Light", and if her first question is "What does Light mean?", my response should be to write down her question, ask her what she thinks it means, and not tell her the answer.

If I tell her up front, "Be careful, this is a Light mission, that means 13-15 enemies" then I may end up testing gameplay, but I've completely short-circuited testing the usability of the interface. She might, for example, take the knowledge I offered and decide to skip the mission. However, if she's not given any extra knowledge beyond what the interface presents, then she might happily run a "Light" mission, squadwipe, and then have plenty of choice words at its conclusion, which might, in fact, reflect a typical user response!

And you're again right that UI/usability always takes a back seat to functionality, bug fixes, balancing, and just about everything else, especially with a product that's largely a volunteer effort. I live that experience every day in my job as well. I'm just passing on what I've learned while doing this for a long time. UI is hard for many reasons, all those included. Some of the lessons I've learned and that are taught by experts -- Observe novices using your product. Don't coach. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. )
SilentJ
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by SilentJ »

Well said Alketi
Ilumi
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by Ilumi »

First Comment .. HYPE HYPE!

I'd say it doesnt have to be dynamic, as our tables arent either.
To my understanding it wouldnt take much time at all to just add the numbers of possible Enemies in the text. Just change "Extremely Light" to "Extremely Light 8+" , "Very Light" to "Very Light 10+" and so on).
With this, there isnt any problem if there are turrets or reinforcements, cause it says 8+ (as in 8-9 + turrets + reinforcements).
I probably could even change the line myself if I knew the file it is saved in (glance at Joinribs for a hint :mrgreen: ).

OR it is much harder than that and my lack of programming knowledge fools me right here.

so long...
DerAva
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by DerAva »

JoINrbs wrote: and when a new player plays something which says it'll have 6-9 enemies and then fights 16 they're probably going to be confused.
I don't think they'll be any more or less confused if it just says "Extremely Light" and they still fight these many enemies. Since it is labeled as "Baseline enemy activity" it quickly becomes obvious that this just refers to enemies walking on the map, and not reinforcements and turrets, just like the Shadow Chamber in vanilla XCOM2 only shows these numbers.

Personally I went into the localization file (\Steam\steamapps\workshop\content\268500\844674609\Localization\XComGame.int) and simply added the numbers (taken from the ufopedia) to the text strings for the various activity levels (Light, Extremely Light etc.). They can be found in lines 2623+ of that localization file. I was just tired of having the ufopedia open on my 2nd monitor and always looking up how many enemies I could expect.
burns
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by burns »

What's the difference in presenting the chosen option to actual numbers, though?
It may be confusing at first to find out how light "Light" really is, but on the other hand who plays a game like Xcom without knowing a few numbers? 6-9 Advents still does not equal 6-9 snakes and mutons, so there's the next complaint waiting after words were replaced by numbers.
I like the suspense that lies within the vagueness when I have to estimate what I will be facing in a Strength 3 Very Light mission in July and if I feel prepared for what I might be up to.

Personally, I would have the paraphrasing of enemy numbers start at light and go upwards from there, but that's a really minor thing.
LordYanaek
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by LordYanaek »

DerAva wrote: I don't think they'll be any more or less confused if it just says "Extremely Light" and they still fight these many enemies. Since it is labeled as "Baseline enemy activity" it quickly becomes obvious that this just refers to enemies walking on the map, and not reinforcements and turrets, just like the Shadow Chamber in vanilla XCOM2 only shows these numbers.
I don't think that's what "Baseline" means. It means this is the default activity you'll get with 100% infiltration and you might get more or less based on how much you infiltrate.
It would be possible to say something like "Extremely Light Activity - Garrison size 7-9" so players know the number of enemies is for units already there. RNF information could be added to the enemy readiness part so it would say "Vulnerable - Reinforcements expected after x-x turns". Turrets are mostly a non issue as long as the information is provided somewhere that they are not considered enemy units.
burns wrote:It may be confusing at first to find out how light "Light" really is, but on the other hand who plays a game like Xcom without knowing a few numbers? 6-9 Advents still does not equal 6-9 snakes and mutons, so there's the next complaint waiting after words were replaced by numbers.
That's why it's labeled as "Activity" and not "Strength".

That being said XCom1 and LW1 also had an activity level without numbers and players quickly learned what they meant so overall i think it's not a big issue and the time required to change the UI have to be taken into consideration.
Fizzwick
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by Fizzwick »

I have started using this mod: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =749138678. It tells you in-mission what quantity is out there. I'm not the best at remembering things so it gives me a heads-up on what I'm facing.
Zyxpsilon
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by Zyxpsilon »

There are soooooo many factors at work when the Tactical layer has been given the task(s) to build-up maps & assemble various other concerns based on the POD numbers and their actual "values" .. that it would be almost impossible to predict the exact amounts for anything.

Readiness, Alert+Force Levels, Worldwide & Regional Strengths, Baseline gap, Activity limits, Infiltration mechanics, RVCL difficulty settings, INI variations & many more!!

I've even planned to create a swift summary of facts (for my LAByrinth mod) about whatever mission types and how they all are "constructed" around gameplay principles that define WHICHever impacts they have on actual combat conditions -- only to realize the complexity is far beyond what it seems. IT might be possible (eventually) to discover a good enough visual structure to develop such facts correctly (without indirect spreadsheet-like methods).. but it would take much time & patience i'm not even sure i will ever get.

Thus -- modifying some strings to provide more precise hints is rather easy... yet, it's the Global Image that matters most to me. All of which should become instinctive enough just through regular (or many) playouts though. It's as if we -players- would rather SEE & KNOW every details and secrets right off the screen/UI systems. Do *WE* play the game -- is the real question in that case?! :mrgreen:
TheCiroth
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by TheCiroth »

Fizzwick wrote:I have started using this mod: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =749138678. It tells you in-mission what quantity is out there. I'm not the best at remembering things so it gives me a heads-up on what I'm facing.
That mod sadly causes crash issues later in the run to the point where I have to remove it around the time I get the shadow chamber. I know several other streamers that have the same problem to the point were we have to reboot the computer because it causes LW to crash so hard that it wont even crash properly thus needing the reboot.

Regarding the OP's comment, I actually added the line's he is asking about into XComGame.int, lines 2624-2634 to include the baseline troops. While I get that there could be more, and it doesn't count turrets, it at least gives me a baseline
nightwyrm
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by nightwyrm »

TheCiroth wrote:
Fizzwick wrote:I have started using this mod: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =749138678. It tells you in-mission what quantity is out there. I'm not the best at remembering things so it gives me a heads-up on what I'm facing.
That mod sadly causes crash issues later in the run to the point where I have to remove it around the time I get the shadow chamber. I know several other streamers that have the same problem to the point were we have to reboot the computer because it causes LW to crash so hard that it wont even crash properly thus needing the reboot.

Regarding the OP's comment, I actually added the line's he is asking about into XComGame.int, lines 2624-2634 to include the baseline troops. While I get that there could be more, and it doesn't count turrets, it at least gives me a baseline
That's interesting. I've never had any problems with it, even though I already have the SC.
Zyxpsilon
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by Zyxpsilon »

OP.. a definitive solution to that lack of Info/Details (ingame) about the exact amount of enemies based on Activity/Levels can be found in DeaconIvory's excellent PDF-Compendium on page #36...

• Enemy Force Levels on Missions (Not Counting any Reinforcement Pods). EL = 10 Enemies, VL = 13 Enemies, Light = 16 Enemies, Light-Moderate = 19 Enemies, Moderate = 22 Enemies, Moderate - Heavy = 25 Enemies, Heavy 28 Enemies, Very Heavy = 31 Enemies, Extremely Heavy = 34 Enemies, Swarming = 37 Enemies, Swarming+ = 41 enemies, etc., etc.

Various other factors can fiddle a bit with these values (Readiness as affected by final Infiltration % result, etc). And as written earlier, the global Advent strength can also add up to ONE Pod(of 3) to each of those conditional FOL missions.
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
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Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by chrisb »

Those numbers seem off by a bit, they might be old. If you want to go by the upper bounds of each activity label it would be
  • Extremely Light - 9
  • Very Light - 12
  • Light - 15
  • Light-Moderate - 18
  • Moderate - 21
  • Moderate-Heavy - 24
  • Heavy - 27
  • Very Heavy - 30
  • Extremely Heavy - 33
  • Swarming - 34+
The way I like to remember them is to just remember Light and Heavy as 15 and 27. Every label up and down just add 3. The lower bound is just 2 less than the upper bound.

Nothing modifies these labels. If there are 22 aliens on the mission it will always be Moderate-Heavy. The way they work is that each alert level of the mission adds a random 1 to 2. So an alert level of 5 can add between 5 to 10 aliens averaging 7.5

Global advent strength has no impact that I'm aware of. The alert level for the mission is the region strength + infil modifier + mission alert modifier. So a 0% supply raid in a strength 5 region will be 5 + 12 + 3 = 20, adding 30 +/- 10. Or a strength 7 region with a 200% jailbreak would be 7 - 3 + 0 adding 6 +/- 2.
Fizzwick
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:48 pm

Re: Is there any reason the game says "Extremely Light" instead of "Extremely Light (6–9)"?

Post by Fizzwick »

nightwyrm wrote:
TheCiroth wrote:
Fizzwick wrote:I have started using this mod: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =749138678. It tells you in-mission what quantity is out there. I'm not the best at remembering things so it gives me a heads-up on what I'm facing.
That mod sadly causes crash issues later in the run to the point where I have to remove it around the time I get the shadow chamber. I know several other streamers that have the same problem to the point were we have to reboot the computer because it causes LW to crash so hard that it wont even crash properly thus needing the reboot.

Regarding the OP's comment, I actually added the line's he is asking about into XComGame.int, lines 2624-2634 to include the baseline troops. While I get that there could be more, and it doesn't count turrets, it at least gives me a baseline
That's interesting. I've never had any problems with it, even though I already have the SC.
Same here. Works just fine for me.
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