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...shouldn't pistols apply the Poisoned debuff when you have a soldier with Venom Rounds? They certainly benefit from AP ammo, and at least when aiming at an enemy it showed +1 damage- it was a Mag Pistol, showed 3-6 damage on robots+sneks, 4-7 on everything else. However, after a glorious (and possibly suicidal) 15-man faceoff with Shadowstrike, 0 enemies were poisoned. Q.Q What gives?

Faceoff and other AoE abilities don't apply debuffs (but i would have thought the first target would still get poisoned).
Whether it's on purpose or not is currently unknown.

LordYanaek wrote:Faceoff and other AoE abilities don't apply debuffs (but i would have thought the first target would still get poisoned).
Whether it's on purpose or not is currently unknown.

Welp.... now I'm sad, and basically my entire reason for researching Venom Rounds has gone out the window >.< And AP rounds, yet again, render all other ammo types irrelevant... Seriously though, this is kind of retarded. Did every single other ammo type really need another kick in the balls? And honestly, while it's definitely powerful, I don't think it would be broken to have Faceoff apply debuffs? It tends to miss many of its shots, it's an ability with a significant investment, and often leaves the soldier in a very bad position (e.g. facing quite a large number of enemies). Plus, let's be honest here- pistols are damn near the only reason to use almost every ammo type but AP Rounds or Tracers.

Well, i really like Venom/Dragon rounds on an overwatch ranger/specialist or a suppression gunner. If they don't kill whatever is coming/moving straight away, they apply a nice debuff. Talon rounds have their use on a crit build. I never bothered with Stiletto/Needle rounds.
I really think AoE attacks should have reduced chance to proc the effect rather than none at all if it's really how it works. Note that i didn't pay enough attention in my own game so this is from what i've read here. I never had a soldier with Faceoff to test it and saturation fire/street sweeper more often than not killed a large amount of their targets.

LordYanaek wrote:Well, i really like Venom/Dragon rounds on an overwatch ranger/specialist or a suppression gunner. If they don't kill whatever is coming/moving straight away, they apply a nice debuff. Talon rounds have their use on a crit build. I never bothered with Stiletto/Needle rounds.
I really think AoE attacks should have reduced chance to proc the effect rather than none at all if it's really how it works. Note that i didn't pay enough attention in my own game so this is from what i've read here. I never had a soldier with Faceoff to test it and saturation fire/street sweeper more often than not killed a large amount of their targets.

My honest problem with the whole overwatch ranger/etc idea? ...just given them AP rounds so they kill everything. Grazes? Oh look, now they don't get stopped by armor. Etc.

Tbh the only ammo types I've ever used are predominantly AP rounds, with Assaults/Snipers getting Talon rounds and the occasional low-aim shooty getting Tracers.

Also, I agree with you re:AoE attacks. I think like 50% is reasonable, or maybe even 60? Just keep in mind that AP Rounds apply fully on AoE attacks- and given that AoE attacks are usually lowered damage, they actually provide disproportionately higher benefit.

Oh i agree that AP stay relevant through the end of the game, maybe even more as almost everything has armor in the late game. Fire is a pretty strong debuff thought so at least dragon rounds are good against anything non-mechanical. A burning enemy is basically one you don't have to worry about (apart from the occasional berserker). My suppression gunner often put enemies who tried to move on fire so they just did nothing, without the fire they could still shoot at me and maybe hit (or use some nasty special). Those 2 do have their uses even if they aren't as widely useful as AP and would be much better if you could AoE debuff

All honesty though, dragon rounds are straight up superior to AP if it's not a machine, they deal the sane +2 damage (admittedly one of those is in the start of enemy turn) and if that still fails to kill the target is disabled.
Venom rounds kind of the same even but a much weaker debuff

In a game where we have a basic unlimited flashbang capable to stun 50% of the enemies with lower level perk, the devs are afraid that faceoff which needs a greater investment (also a weight 3 AWC skill) will unbalance the game if it can apply ammo to the targets.

Autoclave wrote:In a game where we have a basic unlimited flashbang capable to stun 50% of the enemies with lower level perk, the devs are afraid that faceoff which needs a greater investment (also a weight 3 AWC skill) will unbalance the game if it can apply ammo to the targets.

Faceoff issue is actually vanilla. Plus regarding CC potential the only thing that matches a proper Faceoff setup where dots work is Chain Lightning.

For that matter, why can Poison wear off before dealing a single tick of damage? The only time I've poisoned a guy thus far the poison wore off at the start of his next turn- it did literally 0 damage and had 0 CC effect, because it wore off before he moved or shot.

Poison have 30% chance to wear of at the start of every affected unit's turn thus it's not a guaranteed CC (defined in [XComGame.X2StatusEffects] section of XComGameCore.ini)
I don't see a chance for fire to wear off thought i think i've also seen some units stop burning the turn after they received the effect.

Ithuriel wrote:For that matter, why can Poison wear off before dealing a single tick of damage? The only time I've poisoned a guy thus far the poison wore off at the start of his next turn- it did literally 0 damage and had 0 CC effect, because it wore off before he moved or shot.

It can't wear off before dealing one tick of damage because it ticks first THEN rolls the shed chance. But yeah it can shed first turn to

JulianSkies wrote:It can't wear off before dealing one tick of damage because it ticks first THEN rolls the shed chance.

This is definitely not true. I've had 1 HP Poisoned enemies survive to attack me on the next turn. Sometimes you get the 'no longer poisoned' message, sometimes not, but either way, it's not a guaranteed death.

JulianSkies wrote:

Ithuriel wrote:For that matter, why can Poison wear off before dealing a single tick of damage? The only time I've poisoned a guy thus far the poison wore off at the start of his next turn- it did literally 0 damage and had 0 CC effect, because it wore off before he moved or shot.

It can't wear off before dealing one tick of damage because it ticks first THEN rolls the shed chance. But yeah it can shed first turn to

I'm also pretty certain you're wrong here- the enemy was on 2 hp and took no damage whatsoever from poison.

LordYanaek wrote:Poison have 30% chance to wear of at the start of every affected unit's turn thus it's not a guaranteed CC (defined in [XComGame.X2StatusEffects] section of XComGameCore.ini)
I don't see a chance for fire to wear off thought i think i've also seen some units stop burning the turn after they received the effect.

AFAIK burning has a set 2-turn duration but I could be wrong.

Ithuriel wrote:AFAIK burning has a set 2-turn duration but I could be wrong.

You're not wrong. It always removes exactly one turn of actions and does 2-6 damage (unless they run into the fire again and reapply the status). This is why it's so much stronger than Poison – it reliably damages/disables instead of being up to RNG.

Burning also turns off Tac Sense.

I have found putting shredder rounds on the gunner is a very good idea...

But yea...compared to AP rounds, the rest are just underwhelming...

Organic or mech only rounds are just not versatile enough.

I didn't know burning turns off tac sense though, definitely worth keeping that in mind.

if you want faceoff to proc ammo effects on everyone, http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =892359262

bountygiver wrote:if you want faceoff to proc ammo effects on everyone, http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =892359262

Bountygiver do you know that you've more than earned your name? I just felt like you should know that.

bountygiver, is it possible and would you consider adding an ini config to make proc chance less then 100% for those that don't want faceoff to be the ultimate Crowd Control ability but still consider it somewhat dumb that it only proc on the first target?

And thanks for all your bugfix and QoL mods, i can't imagine playing XCom (Vanilla or LW2) without some of those

Ithuriel wrote:

LordYanaek wrote:Faceoff and other AoE abilities don't apply debuffs (but i would have thought the first target would still get poisoned).
Whether it's on purpose or not is currently unknown.

Welp.... now I'm sad, and basically my entire reason for researching Venom Rounds has gone out the window >.< And AP rounds, yet again, render all other ammo types irrelevant... Seriously though, this is kind of retarded. Did every single other ammo type really need another kick in the balls? And honestly, while it's definitely powerful, I don't think it would be broken to have Faceoff apply debuffs? It tends to miss many of its shots, it's an ability with a significant investment, and often leaves the soldier in a very bad position (e.g. facing quite a large number of enemies). Plus, let's be honest here- pistols are damn near the only reason to use almost every ammo type but AP Rounds or Tracers.

AP rounds are really good but they lose value as the game progresses, provided you divorce yourself from always picking hail of bullets, or are able to randomly get enough shredder perks in the AWC or roll high aim classes that can reliably use shredder as an alternative. They can carry you through a game though, and other ammo types are to hard to come by in some cases.

The biggest drawbacks and reasons why everyone picks AP ammo imo, is they rely to much on hail of bullets which eliminates one of the two classes you can reliably get shredder on, most people don't like technicals which eliminates the other and the fact that to many corpses are gating equipment upgrades to stages of the game where it becomes irrelevant. it would be nice to see the center mass perk of grenadiers replaced by shredder, and create some more interesting alternative builds for the grenadier as a whole imo.

Venom rounds are good for the +1 damage boost alone, while the poison dot is unreliable to some extent. Dragon rounds are really good, but come at a point in the game where you are already completing the game. Needle rounds are good for clearing out advent trash and able to be obtained pretty early. Flechette are god tier equipment but are again gated behind rare corpses.

aedn wrote:

Ithuriel wrote:

LordYanaek wrote:Faceoff and other AoE abilities don't apply debuffs (but i would have thought the first target would still get poisoned).
Whether it's on purpose or not is currently unknown.

Welp.... now I'm sad, and basically my entire reason for researching Venom Rounds has gone out the window >.< And AP rounds, yet again, render all other ammo types irrelevant... Seriously though, this is kind of retarded. Did every single other ammo type really need another kick in the balls? And honestly, while it's definitely powerful, I don't think it would be broken to have Faceoff apply debuffs? It tends to miss many of its shots, it's an ability with a significant investment, and often leaves the soldier in a very bad position (e.g. facing quite a large number of enemies). Plus, let's be honest here- pistols are damn near the only reason to use almost every ammo type but AP Rounds or Tracers.

AP rounds are really good but they lose value as the game progresses, provided you divorce yourself from always picking hail of bullets, or are able to randomly get enough shredder perks in the AWC or roll high aim classes that can reliably use shredder as an alternative. They can carry you through a game though, and other ammo types are to hard to come by in some cases.

The biggest drawbacks and reasons why everyone picks AP ammo imo, is they rely to much on hail of bullets which eliminates one of the two classes you can reliably get shredder on, most people don't like technicals which eliminates the other and the fact that to many corpses are gating equipment upgrades to stages of the game where it becomes irrelevant. it would be nice to see the center mass perk of grenadiers replaced by shredder, and create some more interesting alternative builds for the grenadier as a whole imo.

Venom rounds are good for the +1 damage boost alone, while the poison dot is unreliable to some extent. Dragon rounds are really good, but come at a point in the game where you are already completing the game. Needle rounds are good for clearing out advent trash and able to be obtained pretty early. Flechette are god tier equipment but are again gated behind rare corpses.

Shredder is good at dealing with single massive targets, but as you get later in the game everything starts picking up armor, so AP rounds act as bonus damage against most everything.

AP rounds start as specialized rounds early allowing you to deal with targets that could be real issues without those and that's why they are useful, even thought you don't need them on everyone. Later as armor becomes more generalized, they become general purpose rounds that will always be useful and that's why some players consider them better then most later tech rounds (Dragon is the obvious exception). However other rounds will be better in specific situations but they are more specialized. Without Shadow Chamber reports for most missions (i understand it's probably a limitation of the non-static enemy composition), we can't really plan ahead based on what enemies we'll encounter and as a result generalist equipment is usually very attractive but that doesn't mean other rounds are useless. You probably don't want as many Shredder rounds but having one on an enemy capable of doing multi-fire actions, especially if it's not one of your main damage dealers (chain-shot grenadier for instance) can help you take big targets faster.