Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

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josna238
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Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by josna238 »

I decided to retrain an officer sergeant and... 20 days! And it increases with the rank. Why the developers decided to do this way? I mean that in this way the AWC option becomes pointless.

I thinked the retraining a tool to recover from unexpected dissasters, for example if we had a pair of bad dice rolls and lost our two high rank medics we could retrain a hacker in a medic in a reasonable time, but if a sargent takes 20 days, how much would take to retrain a colonel? 40 days?

I am sure there must be a strategic reason to do this way but I can't understand. If anybody knows I would like toknow. Because I don't think the vanilla time was an exploit.
Hazelnut
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by Hazelnut »

I agree, I changed it to 0 when 1.1 switches some perks and left it like that. I don't really see the value or fun in having locked down skills. If I feel I messed up a build I just reconfigure. Means I try things I never would have otherwise. Note I don't use this to reconfigure for specific missions or anything, just when I find a perk is utter crap. (looking at you kubikiri)

Ideally I think retraining should be reduced to maybe 1 day / rank or something.
DerAva
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by DerAva »

First of all, I completely agree that the default time is way too much at the moment. There is an ini setting to return to a fixed retraining time, which is probably the 10 days you currently have in vanilla X2.

That being said it kind of makes sense that you have some kind of scaling, since retraining a MSGT gives you the option to change more perks than retraining a Sergeant, and more value should cost more*. Except that most of the time you don't want to retrain all the perks.

The ideal solution, in my opinion, would be to change the AWC to allow for single skill-level respecs, not full respecs, and then scale the cost based on the rank. Want to retrain your Cpl perk? Please step into this tube for 2 days. Switching Rupture to Kill Zone? That's gonna be 8 days in the yello over there please.

The problem would probably be with the interface - and also, if you actually do want to change all your skills on your MSGT, then this solution would be a bit tedious.


*Small side point: One could also make an argument that a fixed retraining time makes sense, as the cost increase is already in there. Not having your MSGT available for 10 days due to retraining is a higher cost than not having Squaddie McSquadface unavailable in by itself.
nightwyrm
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by nightwyrm »

I totally agree with the OP. High retraining time heavily favours pre-planning your soldier builds instead of experimentation. I changed the respec time to 0 for my first few campaigns just so I have can play around with various combinations, which I enjoy doing whenever I'm playing a new game. I don't abuse it to respec all my dudes for every mission, but it gives me the freedom to take a perk that doesn't look too good at first glance and try it out for a few missions to see how it actually plays.
DashingRookie
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by DashingRookie »

Yes the default training times are horrifying when you are still trying to figure out what the perks actually do and when they would be most useful.

I guess a compromise could be that you actually get to select the new build right at the moment of putting the Soldier into the tube and the tube would figure out the time it takes based on how much the new build differs from the current one. It could maybe even take some weighting into account to penalize switching from "safe" early game builds to late game powerhouse ones.
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3tamatulg
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by 3tamatulg »

It's way too high, I also modded the time but down to 1 day per rank. And I still only did it twice in my most recent campaign.

I think it might be more effort to code than it's worth, but it would be cool if you send them for retraining, and choose which perks to free up, then maybe it takes 1 day per perk. Like if I want to retrain my LtC MSGT Gunner to have Grazing Fire instead of Center Mass, should it really take the maximum amount of time, whatever that may be?
josna238
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by josna238 »

As some of you said, an ideal solution could be the "pay per perk" time, but it would be maybe too difficult to mod (or even impossible, i am not an expert on programing).

Taking your ideas could be something like this: (numbers are not deeply thought, is just for example):

1.- We click the "retrain" button, select soldier and the abilities window is opened.
2.- We reselect the desired perks and the game say how much time it will cost according to table (*)
3.- We click on "begin retraining" buton and the soldier becomes locked for the time displayed.

(*) An example of table could be:
Level 1 perk: +24 hours
Level 2 perk: +36 hours
Level 3 perk: +54 hours
Level 4 perk: +81 hours
Level 5 perk: +121 hours
Level 6 perk: +182 hours

So retraining 2 perks (level 2 and 3) would cost around 4 days but retraining all the perks would cost more than 20 days.
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johnnylump
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by johnnylump »

I dislike the mechanic and think your choices should have permanent consequences. No chance I'm going to lower it in our release versions, but mod to your heart's content.
Alketi
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by Alketi »

johnnylump wrote:I dislike the mechanic and think your choices should have permanent consequences. No chance I'm going to lower it in our release versions, but mod to your heart's content.
I wish the re-training time was told to the player in the popup, before choosing. It's always nice to know the price before purchasing, especially when it's a permanent decision with no turning back.
Manifest
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by Manifest »

Hazelnut wrote:I agree, I changed it to 0 when 1.1 switches some perks and left it like that. I don't really see the value or fun in having locked down skills. If I feel I messed up a build I just reconfigure. Means I try things I never would have otherwise. Note I don't use this to reconfigure for specific missions or anything, just when I find a perk is utter crap. (looking at you kubikiri.)
The reason the AWC takes time to respec is to prevent you from switching between early and late game perks for nothing. But used to test and learn about skills and builds I think 0 days is great, your choices should have consequences but it's arguable that you should face consequences for completely uninformed choices. . You just shouldn't use it for a gameplay advantage, and eventually you shouldn't have to learn any more.
Hazelnut
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by Hazelnut »

Manifest wrote:
Hazelnut wrote:I agree, I changed it to 0 when 1.1 switches some perks and left it like that. I don't really see the value or fun in having locked down skills. If I feel I messed up a build I just reconfigure. Means I try things I never would have otherwise. Note I don't use this to reconfigure for specific missions or anything, just when I find a perk is utter crap. (looking at you kubikiri.)
The reason the AWC takes time to respec is to prevent you from switching between early and late game perks for nothing. But used to test and learn about skills and builds I think 0 days is great, your choices should have consequences but it's arguable that you should face consequences for completely uninformed choices. . You just shouldn't use it for a gameplay advantage, and eventually you shouldn't have to learn any more.
Oh I see, so taking a perk for early advantage then switching to another to support a later game build. Hmm, never even occurred to me to do that.
Jadiel
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by Jadiel »

Alketi wrote:
johnnylump wrote:I dislike the mechanic and think your choices should have permanent consequences. No chance I'm going to lower it in our release versions, but mod to your heart's content.
I wish the re-training time was told to the player in the popup, before choosing. It's always nice to know the price before purchasing, especially when it's a permanent decision with no turning back.
It's not though. Once you've put them in the tube, you can pull them out whenever you like. So if you look and think "It's gonna take 25 days!?!?", just pull them out again.
josna238
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by josna238 »

johnnylump wrote:I dislike the mechanic and think your choices should have permanent consequences. No chance I'm going to lower it in our release versions, but mod to your heart's content.
Then, why not remove this feature completely and use the slot for anything more interesting? I like the idea of play with no chance to change too. But I also like the mechanic of be ablo to retrain losing some things (in this case time). But putting a huge time in this feature means the same as removing it.

Is something like having an item (that you could like or not) and give it a cost of 50000 suplies, 15000 alloys and 8000 elerium. It would be more rasonable to use the slot for another thing.
DerAva
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by DerAva »

johnnylump wrote:I dislike the mechanic and think your choices should have permanent consequences. No chance I'm going to lower it in our release versions, but mod to your heart's content.
I do agree that choices should have consequences, but does the player, especially a new player, have enough information to make a meaningful choice here? I see two problems here:

First of all, the default setting for skill trees is that the view of the later perks is locked, so you won't see the skills that will come later. So after a levelup you might suddenly see a synergy that you weren't aware of, and now the time to respec is punishing. This is probably not an issue for people on this forum or advanced players in general, but this setting is a bad new player experience. This could be compensated by changing the skill tree view default setting to unlocked, at least on lower difficulties.

Secondly, and more importantly, several skills won't really tell you what they will do so you'd first have to try them out in the field. This is partially due to lacking tooltips that probably had to be completed/translated before the details of the abilities were clear, or by abilities that simply can't be explained in a tooltip. You can't precisely describe the area of effect of Saturation Fire, so you won't know what it actually does until you tried it*. Again, experienced players, frequent LP watchers and people on their 3rd campaign know the details, but a newer player might be blindsided by this, disappointed that cool ability A doesn't really do what the tooltip promised, and then feel punished by a 24 day respec timer.

Meaningful choices should have consequences, but a player needs to have the right information in order for a choice to be meaningful, otherwise you might as well just flip coins when selecting a new perk.


*Slightly off-topic, and completely not feasible in XCOM, but I was reminded of the StarCraft 2 Heart of the Swarm solo campaign, where you had to select evolution abilities for your swarm and had two pick between 2 mutually exclusive skills. In order to help you to make a good decision, the game offered short video clips of the abilities in action, probably since the tooltip description alone would not have done the trick of properly describing these abilities.
nightwyrm
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by nightwyrm »

DerAva wrote:
johnnylump wrote:I dislike the mechanic and think your choices should have permanent consequences. No chance I'm going to lower it in our release versions, but mod to your heart's content.
*Slightly off-topic, and completely not feasible in XCOM, but I was reminded of the StarCraft 2 Heart of the Swarm solo campaign, where you had to select evolution abilities for your swarm and had two pick between 2 mutually exclusive skills. In order to help you to make a good decision, the game offered short video clips of the abilities in action, probably since the tooltip description alone would not have done the trick of properly describing these abilities.
I really love that little gameplay aid. And those videos were for minor evolutions you could go back on. For the big evolutions you can't change your mind on, you get mini-missions to try them out in an actual combat setting.
Manifest
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by Manifest »

DerAva wrote:
johnnylump wrote:I dislike the mechanic and think your choices should have permanent consequences. No chance I'm going to lower it in our release versions, but mod to your heart's content.
I do agree that choices should have consequences, but does the player, especially a new player, have enough information to make a meaningful choice here?

Meaningful choices should have consequences, but a player needs to have the right information in order for a choice to be meaningful, otherwise you might as well just flip coins when selecting a new perk.

*Slightly off-topic, and completely not feasible in XCOM, but I was reminded of the StarCraft 2 Heart of the Swarm solo campaign, where you had to select evolution abilities for your swarm and had two pick between 2 mutually exclusive skills. In order to help you to make a good decision, the game offered short video clips of the abilities in action, probably since the tooltip description alone would not have done the trick of properly describing these abilities.
Totally think information is the issue here, maybe to reflect this on Veteran respeccing should take 0 time or something? Though Veteran is also supposed to be a real part of the game, not just a tutorial, so that's not the best idea. Also SC2 had the video previews as far back as the base game (Wings of Liberty) and that would actually be so cool to have in LW2, but I'm not sure if a video clip could be modded in. Sounds really interesting.
Alketi
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by Alketi »

Jadiel wrote: It's not though. Once you've put them in the tube, you can pull them out whenever you like. So if you look and think "It's gonna take 25 days!?!?", just pull them out again.
Ah. Well, it's not at all clear that's the mechanic as the warning beforehand perhaps implies otherwise.

It's never good UI design to only present the user/player *afterward* with an "Undo" what they can be told *beforehand* and decide with knowledge to "Cancel".

What's so hard about telling the user:

"Retraining time: 31 days. This will reset all stats blah blah blah"?
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johnnylump
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by johnnylump »

What's so hard about telling the user:

"Retraining time: 31 days. This will reset all stats blah blah blah"?
Just a guess, but probably two or three hours of dev time because it would involve changing vanilla UI code and passing a variable.
Stroggus
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by Stroggus »

johnnylump wrote:I dislike the mechanic and think your choices should have permanent consequences. No chance I'm going to lower it in our release versions, but mod to your heart's content.
Well I agree with you, but sometimes you don`t know all your variables to make a thoughtful decision.

For example I never ever take Long Watch on sharps, but this one sharp rolls Cool Under Pressure. Hmm I thought, interesting. And after CUP he rolls Sentinel. That was when I decided to retrain him to Long Watch.

Other than AWC synergy I too don`t really see the point of retraining. I mean I see the point, but don`t like it much either.
josna238
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Re: Do anybody else think the retraining time is too high?

Post by josna238 »

Another idea could be to be ablo to reduce time putting a engineer on the slot of AWC. It would be suitable with the idea of have consequences, if you chose a bad perk and want to redo, you would lose time from the soldier in tube, time from an engineer on AWC and you do you couldn't have the healing bonus of a scientist in AWC. But you would be able to have a reasonable time by losing other things.

Or puting a count on the soldier, if we retrain once we receive a reasonable time but if we would want to retrain again we would receive a huge time.

Or do in the way that if you retrain a soldier, he loses a rank.

There are more ways to put a reasonable cost on retrain rather than having the soldier on the tube during half campaing.

There are a lot af things on the game acording the idea of having consequences on decisions but are redoable: you can undo a PCS but you lose the first one. You can reasign a rebel job but you lose a work/day, you can change an instalation by another but need to dismantele and lose the first...

If the idea is that this feature doesn't like the developers and shouldn't be in the game it would be better to remove it but if the idea is to have the feature but with a cost, in my opinion that cost souldn't be so high that makes it almost useless.
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