"Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

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Sax2514
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:47 pm

"Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by Sax2514 »

Hello everybody,
I think that these types of missions aren't correctly balanced, especially if we compare them with the other type (defend the supply convoy). Here is my experience:( advent strenght =7, mid November, Difficulty Commander) I send my shinobi to scout nearby and he instantly see TWO pods of eight aliens totally clustered together, on the verge of attacking my rebels and the datatap. My rebels were only four, plus one of my soldier as haven adviser. They were obviously undergeared and unable to resist 8 or 16 aliens on the next turn. So I thought: let's try to taunt them with my sniper using squadsight, at least I could give my rebels some breathing time. So I kill one of those with my sniper rifle, but obviously I active them all ( some of whom didn't seem to care about my squad and just ran over the datatap). Anyway, I tried to survive during my turn, but then at the beginning of the next turn another pod of 8 shows up, flanking me and almost killing my ranger. So, making some counts, in just few actions, I was surrounded by 24 enemies and this doesn't seem correct, especially if we compare this mission with the other mini-retaliation, where enemies came through reinforcements every two turns and you have some time to finish 1 pod and then overwatch for the next.
If understand correctly, with patch 1.2 if I skip this mission, I lose my haven adviser and thus seems a very punishing and unbalanced mission. Am I the only one who is experiencing this kind of frustration or I'm doing something wrong?
Plus, excuse me if I made some mistakes, English is not my native language.
Sporadix
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:27 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by Sporadix »

You are not alone in your frustration with these missions. Personally I think the recruitment raid is even worse (since you can't even throw evac and choose to forfeit your rebels), but the mini-retals in general are pretty terrible.

The good news is that it looks like Legend balance tester Xwynns also hates these missions as designed and is pushing to make them less awful.
Antigonos
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:47 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by Antigonos »

Recruitment raid was the mission that made me drop my last campaign, especially after a viper grabbed three of my soldiers in a row.

Not helping either is the fact that aliens have no problem one shooting the recruiters behind full cover. It makes this kind of missions pointless, frustrating and very punishing when you lose a full squad of 8 over geared soldiers.
Sax2514
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by Sax2514 »

I didn't know the existence of recruitment raid because I never had one, but I checked a video on youtube and I must admit is pretty bad too. I think that is surely a problem of balance, because the difference in difficulty between these two missions and the "defend the supply convoy" one is very clear. The idea is great, but I think that the devs need to reduce the number of enemies, put the pods away from each other and not clustered together (which is insane), and delay the rate of reinforcements. Knowing that a skilled player like Xwynns hates these types of missions is the confirmation that they are extremely unbalanced. I hope the devs fix them for patch 1.3.
aimlessgun
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:22 am

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by aimlessgun »

I did a ton of these missions because I just went max intel over nearly the whole world in lategame and never hid anyone, and the problem seems to lie in the extreme variance in difficulty based on pod spawn locations and map generation.

A lot of times this mission was a cakewalk. Enemies didn't show up to the datatap for a couple turns, when they did it was only one pod. Usually a couple pods directly between you and the datatap, 1 off on the flank, and 1 near the datatap itself. Pretty simple to quickly carve your way across the map with your soldiers and win the mission. Maybe you lose a rebel to some lucky hit rolls from Advent.

On the other end of the spectrum, some of the time it is absurdly hard, with enemies all over the datatap from the very start. I had a mission where a Hive Queen scamper moved through the wall of the building before my first turn even began. I never got a mission where 3 pods attacked the datatap but I have heard of it happening.

Every single one I got was doable, but only because the super hard ones happened when I already had MSGTs and the aliens had little chance on the tactical layer.

So it seems like the map generation parameters need to be tightened and balanced a bit. Overall I actually like the mission a lot, just not when it has ridiculous spawns.

Recruitment raid, hard for me to say because I only got one, but the one I got sucked. 0/10 would avoid. I liked the supply retaliation.
aedn
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:12 am

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by aedn »

data tap missions are somewhat random, but most of the time easily completed. The only real issue occurs when you end up with multiple pods activated on turn one at the data tap itself.

Pod placement is pretty standard on the mini retaliations, so if you know rough locations, you can isolate the pods near you and kill them. Pods start in yellow alert and will rush to the data tap if not engaged each turn. At low advent strength multiple pods will always be closer to your spawn location, with one pod across the map near the data tap. A typical placement is shown below for datatap. The pod locations will move laterally closer or farther away from the tap or your spawn location but will always be on your flanks in relation to the data tap. If you spawn at the edge of the map, one of the pods will always be between you and the data tap location.


Pod 1 Pod 3
Spawn Datatap
Pod 2 Pod 4

Recruitment retaliations are extremely easy. There will be several pods in random locations on the map in yellow alert, and you will have reinforcement waves dropping on you at the start, and every few turns after that. It's scripted so pretty easy to predict. What you want to do is freeze at the spawn, and stay on defense until the first wave drops. Kill it when it drops. Moving towards the evac without clearing the reinforcement wave and a patrolling pod or two will result in getting flanked by multiple groups.
Jadiel
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:28 am

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by Jadiel »

The other thing to bear in mind with data tap missions is the aliens are pretty single minded in their pursuit of their objective (destroying the data tap). When you do get a mission with rough spawn locations, or too many pods attacking the data tap, just sacrificing it and running away with your liason/rebels can mean far fewer losses. The aliens will typically just shoot the relay, and ignore your rebels.
RXTXK
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:55 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by RXTXK »

also with the mini retals the supply one is easier because it is usually a bigger map, which means lower enemy density, which for me at least is the key driver of difficulty
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 422
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:25 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by gimrah »

I have enjoyed the mini-retals I've done. I would not want the formats to change fundamentally.

Different question as to how punishing they are to do, how punishing they are to ignore, and whether abort is sufficiently feasible.
Clibanarius
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:33 am

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by Clibanarius »

I've only done a dozen or so of these, but I've only recently had a problem with them on the latest one, where, upon entering the map, a pod activated. One of the ones XCOM is supposed to deal with, not the standard ADVENT one that is significantly weaker. And it activated on the datatap house. Only through copious scumming was I able to keep the resisty death count low.
Hazelnut
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:00 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by Hazelnut »

I quite like these when no pods start too close to the rebels. It often forces a multi-pod engagement which is butt-clenching but fun.

When a pod is on the rebels turn 1 it's FUBAR and I hate em.

My 2p... :-)
xmd1997
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by xmd1997 »

I feel there should be more of an Incentives reward for the MiniRetals. Sure its great that my operations are "Unhindered" but that doesn't exactly compensate for getting half my squad wounded or killed. They already said that corpses wont be on the table, maybe perhaps we get extra supplies or Intel?
KevlinTallfellow
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:01 am

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by KevlinTallfellow »

I don't think the issue people have with these missions is the balance, but more precisely, the huge variations in how the missions can play out.

For defending the data tap in particular, the rebels at the objective have some weapons, but more importantly, they have some critical consumables that are key to defending themselves long enough for your QRF to come save the day. Where the enemy pods are located at the start of the mission will almost completely dictate the difficulty and cost in blood of completing the mission (even if you complete it in failure).

If you start the map and before you even get your very first turn there are enemies activating around the objective, you're probably going to be in for a rough ride, especially if on activation they manage to wound or kill your people there. In this scenario, you're staring at mission failure before you even begin, certainly if it's more than one pod that activates around the objective.

If you only have one pod of enemies to deal with at the objective, and you have most or all of your people available to you on your first turn, then the rebels can use some flashbangs to neuter the enemies, and smoke to protect themselves. This can stall them a couple of turns to allow your QRF to move up and engage the hostiles around the objective.

If there are no enemies in sight of the objective at mission start, you're probably in for an easy ride, assuming you don't activate half the map on your very first blue move.

The placement of the pods being close enough to the starting location of your units to activate at mission start seems to be the main issue, and this may be intentional. This is exacerbated in regions with higher strength, as there will be more enemies on the map and therefore more opportunities for them to activate.

As for deciding whether or not to even try to do the defense, if you fail the mission, the respective job will be unavailable to that region for a few weeks. When it is a data tap defense, failure to go to the mission can be particularly devastating. Not only does it mean the death of your rebels, but also the death of the haven advisor that was with them. On top of that, the intel job will be unavailable in the region for a few weeks, which will prevent you from finding more missions in that region. If you just lost a bunch of rebels there, jailbreaks would have been the best way for you to get several more rebels quickly, and you will also be completely unable to detect missions in the region that would allow you to halt the progress of dark events.

Opting not to defend a supply convoy will cost you rebel lives and supplies. Opting not to defend a recruiting drive will cost you some rebels. But opting not to defend a data tap will cost you rebel lives *and* the subsequent opportunities to get more rebels *and* supplies *and* intel *and* scientists *and* engineers *and* rookies *and* ranked soldiers. The opportunity cost associated with data tap defense failures seems to be orders of magnitude greater than the cost of failing the other mini retaliations. Perhaps this is where more examination is necessary.
Jacke
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by Jacke »

About the beginning of April, I got a "Defend the Data Tap" mission with 24 hours notice, enemy either Light or Light-Moderate. And the Avenger was a zone away, so there was 23 hours to go. A Squaddie Ranger and 7 rebels, no researched weapons or armour yet. Oh dear.

But then something screwed up with the game and I had to reload from an early save. And I never got this mission. I was so happy.
gravityd9
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:02 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by gravityd9 »

KevlinTallfellow wrote: For defending the data tap in particular, the rebels at the objective have some weapons, but more importantly, they have some critical consumables that are key to defending themselves long enough for your QRF to come save the day. Where the enemy pods are located at the start of the mission will almost completely dictate the difficulty and cost in blood of completing the mission (even if you complete it in failure).

If you start the map and before you even get your very first turn there are enemies activating around the objective, you're probably going to be in for a rough ride, especially if on activation they manage to wound or kill your people there. In this scenario, you're staring at mission failure before you even begin, certainly if it's more than one pod that activates around the objective.

If you only have one pod of enemies to deal with at the objective, and you have most or all of your people available to you on your first turn, then the rebels can use some flashbangs to neuter the enemies, and smoke to protect themselves. This can stall them a couple of turns to allow your QRF to move up and engage the hostiles around the objective.
Those are the big "ifs" though, arent they? Most of the other retaliations I can go into with some expectation of success if I play smart. But datataps are a complete crapshoot.

I've had ones that are silly easy. But then just today I had this...

Three rebels with laser weapons guarding the datatap. They are assaulted by two pods right from the get-go... elite officer, two advanced troopers, mec archer in one pod and two chrysalids and a hive queen(!!) in the other pod. Meanwhile, my squad has to fight through two pods of it's own between us and the datatap, which included a muton elite, two codex, a sentinel, a great archon, a heavy grenadier, a trooper, a commando, and another sentinel. The hive queeen killed two rebels in two successive turns, leaving chrysalids pods I was never going to get to in time to do 20 pts to them before they popped more. The third rebel was killed by the two troopers and the mec through high cover. And the chrysalids and the officer just whaled on the datatap the whole time. Those rebels were never going to stop a hive queen from doing whatever she wanted all over their faces and the datatap. The datatap was down by turn three, with no prayer of me ever having gotten anywhere near it. I evac'd out and called it a day. I could have hung around and killed everything without much trouble, but it just seemed like a risk of wounds for a mission that was already failed by turn three, and no loot to carry home.

That mission would have been plenty challenging if my squad were already at the datatap from the get-go. Across the map with that line up of pods, that was never going to happen. I'm not a fan of the impossible mission before you even set foot on the map.
Manifest
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:30 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by Manifest »

A critical flaw of these missions is that the haven rebels make them harder by activating the pods at the datatap. I would rather they not appear at all.
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by trihero »

One of the issues I have with the mini-retals in general is the gamey "logic gate" nature; if you happen to know the game checks for X amount of rebels before it can launch them, then you can always avoid them, but if you don't know about this, you are pretty much doomed to an endless cycle of bs.

The other issue I have is yes like everyone else, I think the intel mini-raid is overtuned. It seems like every time I turn my back here we go again and they cost a lot of precious intel rebels. Essentially feels like getting punished for playing the game (you're supposed to have a lot of rebels on intel to get any sort of decent mission timers, then you get whacked for doing so).
Autoclave
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:00 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by Autoclave »

This type of mission is why I currently consider the iron man unplayable. The pod near the data tap is completely unfair and ridiculous.
gravityd9
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:02 pm

Re: "Protect Data tap" missions seem unbalanced

Post by gravityd9 »

I just had my second one of these... in one day... plus two haven defenses... and once again a hive queen was on the datatap, along with a chrysalid soldier and two basic chrysalids on turn one. On turn two, they were joined by two sectoid commanders, two muton centurions, and two sidewinder elites. The datatap was dead on turn three, along with three rebels and my haven adviser soldier. I threw flashbangs from the rebels every turn to keep them as locked down as possible, but of course flashbangs don't do squat to stop them hitting the datatap since it's an automatic hit.

How the bloody f*** is anyone supposed to protect a datatap in those conditions? These missions really need some tuning. I'm at the point now where I just say f*** datatap missions, they aren't worth the effort being pretty much a guaranteed failure at this mid-late game stage. They are so pointless to attempt at this stage, that I don't even bother putting soldiers as advisers in regions where I'm going heavy intel, so that I don't lose the soldier when I inevitably ignore the datatap retal.

Edit: Let me add that it isn't just datatap retals that need a look. Retals in general could use a little balance look. One of those two haven defenses that popped up at the same time, there were three pods literally on top of each other within one move of my spawn point. And I when I say they were literally on top of each other, I mean literally on top of each other intermingled so it looked like one pod of 14... a rainbow pod, an archon/double sidewinder pod, and a muton centurion/double muton pod... such that there was no way to activate without activating all three. Plus reinforcements incoming. I thought there was some coding that would ensure that sort of pod spawn didn't happen, such that three pods would not literally be occupying the same area?

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