Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

[Nicklopez2005@gmail.com]

I've been playing on commander and currently 4 months into my campaign(July) and i've done about 7-8 raids with 10 man squads on 0%. I usually come out with wounded soldiers but no deaths. I like the idea though of reducing it to 8 squad members, because there's no chance for anyone to ever bring a 10 man squad and reach 100% infiltration. Maybe requiring a player to use intel to start a mission under 50% infiltration. That way a player may gain resources, but will also have to pay intel, which may make them reconsider if they need to focus on expanding to reach the blacksite. It could also limit the player to how many of the 0% infiltrations they can do, if they run out of intel, so that they can't just farm them over and over... like i've been doing.

I think it's worth mentioning, that I was fortunate not to take any deaths leading up to those numerous supply raid/troop columns and had a pretty decent roster on hand when I started. I would take a few injuries each mission I went on and they had to be sidelined for a bit. Near the end of me liberating the region and having gone on so many tough missions.... I was nearly picking soldiers from the bottom of my roster. I wouldn't have been able to keep them up and had to eventually take a couple lower ranked soldiers on the HQ assault instead of my full A-team. I think that reducing the soldiers from 10 to 8 would make a huge difference, as there were several situations where the extra 2 soldiers could've easily been the difference from me staying alive or wiping when I pulled a couple 8 man pods simultaneously with several beefy units. I play on ironman and losing one of those missions by having my large squad wiped would've almost surely been the end of my campaign with so many of my best troops going down.

I thought I would update my post. I went on another supply raid today and nearly had my whole squad wiped with a bad pull. Now that the enemy fields tougher units, it was devastating. I lost 3 soldiers and 4 wounded and two of them had to be revived. If my sniper hadn't had just gotten the "serial" perk, it would've been GG. It seemed a bit cheese when I was hitting lower level enemies right after I got laser weapons, but now that the aliens have caught up... it's definitely not a cake walk. This is just from my personal experience.

[Devon_v]

Abusing squadsight/conceal or just strong defensive setups (without squadsight) on these maps really well but is tedious and not super fun, but way too effective not to do. No concrete suggestions for how to fix.

I'd add a global map alert that triggers a set number of turns after breaking concealment based on how poorly the mission is infiltrated. You can still fight it out if you want, but you can't sit in a corner and squadsight a 0% because the whole map will eventually charge you.

You might not be able to get to 100%, but you'd sure want to get as many points as you could, using Intel boost if necessary, to buy yourself enough turns - and few enough enemies - before the whole map comes down on you like a ton of bricks.

You evac on flare, so you can easily retreat and accept failure if things go sour.


I really don't like the idea of squad size caps. "This mission is really important, but we refuse to send a full Skyranger to deal with it. Because reasons."

[justdont]

You can still fight it out if you want, but you can't sit in a corner and squadsight a 0% because the whole map will eventually charge you.

Depending on the map, this might be very favorable to the player. If pods will trickle in, a good defensive position is all that needed to win the mission by sitting in a spot. If many pods will activate at once, AI will derp around heavily due to not having enough cover (and then you blow up stacked enemies to hell).

Not all maps/spawn points will allow good positioning that's not heavily flankable and offers enough full cover spots, but many will.

Current metagame very often means that summoning pods to the player will make the mission much easier for the player. Instead of harder (and the root of this problem is the fact that it's extremely favorable to activate enemies on their own turn rather than yours, even with "yellow alert" mechanic). Only summoning enemies to flank the player will make it harder - but this is quite preventable to a good degree by sitting in the corner of the map.

[JackDT]

Thematically I'm fine with squad size limits. "We've acquired 6 Advent cover identities hat can pass Red-level security on that day, and who have reasons for being near the supplies or VIP that will hold up to any scrutiny. If we have to take one more person we're going to need to burn one our assets or find some dirt on someone we can use (spend intel)."

[nightwyrm]

Just have all Supply Raids spawn you smack dab in the middle of the map in the lowest elevation, done!

[Devon_v]

Current metagame very often means that summoning pods to the player will make the mission much easier for the player. Instead of harder (and the root of this problem is the fact that it's extremely favorable to activate enemies on their own turn rather than yours, even with "yellow alert" mechanic). Only summoning enemies to flank the player will make it harder - but this is quite preventable to a good degree by sitting in the corner of the map.

Give them 100% offensive actions on activation. Advantage gone.

[trihero]

Give advent "orbital flashbang launcher" which has a UFO in orbit bombard your team with a flashbang every turn.

[justdont]

Give them 100% offensive actions on activation. Advantage gone.

That actually might be an interesting solution, if a very brute-force one.

[Postmaster]

A giant space station gently releases a flashbang down onto your troops. LOL

[trihero]

A giant space station gently releases a flashbang down onto your troops. LOL

Yup, I hope they put enough ablative armor on those flashbangs to survive the atmospheric entry o.O

[archangel]

Give them 100% offensive actions on activation. Advantage gone.

That actually might be an interesting solution, if a very brute-force one.

I suggest it is implemented into a new difficulty above Legendary called "Very Very Butthurt"

[Devon_v]

Give them 100% offensive actions on activation. Advantage gone.

That actually might be an interesting solution, if a very brute-force one.

I suggest it is implemented into a new difficulty above Legendary called "Very Very Butthurt"

I don't mean in general, I mean as a consequence of 0%ing a troop column. You want a war? You got a war.

[Sir_Dr_D]

It is a good idea by Nicklopez2005@gmail.com. Have infiltration missions that are less then 100% actually cost intel just to do. The lower the infiltration percentage the more intel that is required.

Or another plan someone suggested is is to have supplies increase with infiltration level. The lower the infiltration the more supplies the aliens are able to move away in time.

And another deterrent is if not all corpses are retrievable. However many aliens there would be at %200 infiltration is the max number of corpses you can get. You can say the aliens dispose of the bodies so xcom can't get them, or something along the lines.

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But makling the missions harder won't deter people. It will just make the missions more tedious. There has to be strategic penatlies included, and not just tactical ones.

[Nicklopez2005@gmail.com]

I thought I would give another update, and let everyone know that I lost my campaign due to a 0% supply raid when my entire squad got wiped. Also, I noticed that Mobtank said nagul's feedback on this matter isn't valid due to him playing on veteran. I would have to agree with Mobtank's assessment because of one very major aspect in difference between Veteran and the above difficulties! When you play on rookie and veteran the enemies don't shoot after they scatter. That's a HUGE difference! When you're doing these supply raids on 0% and all the pods have 7-8 enemies.... all it takes is one pod running up on you from the side or behind and it can easily lead to multiple soldiers dying instantly to reaction fire while being flanked after the scatter. That's exactly what happen to me in my campaign that caused my entire squad to get wiped. Especially when the pods can have 2-3 mutons that can one shot flanked soldiers with reaction fire.

[Tuhalu]

I thought I would give another update, and let everyone know that I lost my campaign due to a 0% supply raid when my entire squad got wiped. Also, I noticed that Mobtank said nagul's feedback on this matter isn't valid due to him playing on veteran. I would have to agree with Mobtank's assessment because of one very major aspect in difference between Veteran and the above difficulties! When you play on rookie and veteran the enemies don't shoot after they scatter. That's a HUGE difference! When you're doing these supply raids on 0% and all the pods have 7-8 enemies.... all it takes is one pod running up on you from the side or behind and it can easily lead to multiple soldiers dying instantly to reaction fire while being flanked after the scatter. That's exactly what happen to me in my campaign that caused my entire squad to get wiped. Especially when the pods can have 2-3 mutons that can one shot flanked soldiers with reaction fire.

They actually do yellow alert reflex actions on Veteran. It's a lesser chance, but its still there.

In any case, it's a mistake to ignore feedback from any difficulty level since they all need to be as difficult as they are supposed to be.

[Nicklopez2005@gmail.com]

Well my apology then, I hadn't had it happen for the short time that I played on Veteran and I read somewhere that it was turned off on the lower 2 difficulties. Also, it's not ignoring someones feedback, but it's a completely different experience when you have 8 man pods aggro'ing and a 3rd of the them getting reaction shots. Especially, when the pods have some heavy hitting units that can instantly kill a soldier even in predator armor if it's a flank shot. That little bit of a difference just got me wiped

I would also add that a majority of my heavy wounds that I took on those missions that were successful, were similar situations where I got hit from a flanking pod that took reaction shots. It seemed as though the strategy was only working when I first hit laser rifles, but as soon as they got better hit points/units.... it was becoming more of a dice roll. Even after completing 7-8 of those raids... the last two I tried ended in 3 deaths/4 wounded... then the one after caused the end of my campaign. As much as those give some decent alloys and elerium.... at the end of the day it, it was no match for me as I tried to push for better technology to stay above water.

[Jacke]

In any case, it's a mistake to ignore feedback from any difficulty level since they all need to be as difficult as they are supposed to be.

I just wish more people would give the difficulty level their experiences are coming from as it gets confusing sometimes. I think all XCOM games radically change between the difficulties.

[Manifest]

In any case, it's a mistake to ignore feedback from any difficulty level since they all need to be as difficult as they are supposed to be.

I just wish more people would give the difficulty level their experiences are coming from as it gets confusing sometimes. I think all XCOM games radically change between the difficulties.

Sure, but the game is also an interaction between the difficulty level and your skill level. I'd say the biggest problem is that it's difficult to tell the difference between when the worst player says "Veteran is too hard" and the best player says "Legendary is too easy".

[Tuhalu]

In any case, it's a mistake to ignore feedback from any difficulty level since they all need to be as difficult as they are supposed to be.

I just wish more people would give the difficulty level their experiences are coming from as it gets confusing sometimes. I think all XCOM games radically change between the difficulties.

Sure, but the game is also an interaction between the difficulty level and your skill level. I'd say the biggest problem is that it's difficult to tell the difference between when the worst player says "Veteran is too hard" and the best player says "Legendary is too easy".

It's also difficult to tell the difference between "*** is too hard because I'm losing/making poor choices on the strategy layer" and "*** is too hard because I'm losing/making poor choices on the tactical layer".

[Hazelnut]

We're looking at three things on this:

1) Reducing max allowed squad size to 8
2) Requiring a minimum infiltration % to start the mission in concealment
3) Requiring a minimum infiltration % or else the enemies start in yellow alert (able to shoot on activation)

Like ideas 2&3, but not 1. I do 10 man supply raids without the camp in corner and bore myself to death tactic, and usually 100%+ infil with the occasional low 50-70% infil with A team and appetite for risk. Maybe I am bad player, but I find these to be dicey enough and can't imagine wanting to do 0% patiently enough for low risk. So 2&3 wouldn't really affect me since I infil anyway to support my playstyle, whereas 1 would mean I'd never want to do these except at very low enemy numbers.

[Jadiel]

Can you tell us your secret tech for scanning supply raids with 20 days on the clock?

[SRSChaos]

We're looking at three things on this:

1) Reducing max allowed squad size to 8
2) Requiring a minimum infiltration % to start the mission in concealment
3) Requiring a minimum infiltration % or else the enemies start in yellow alert (able to shoot on activation)

I also like 2 and 3.

In the early to mid game I think 0% supply raids should be extremely dangerous and risky. Right now its probably too easy to sneak around the outside of the map and find that perfect corner to camp in with minimal risk. To be honest I think I did one or 2 of these early on and stopped because I found them boring.

However, in the late game they really are the only good way to get the supplies you need to outfit everyone in the best weapons and armor. Though at this point I don't find it necessary to camp in a corner any more. I can engage multiple pods at once with a 10 man squad of master sergeants and walk away with only a couple minor injuries if I play it right. Mistakes can be costly though. It feels challenging, risky, and most importantly, fun.

I think options 2 and 3 would make 0% supply raids very hard in the early game without making them impossible in the late game. Which is exactly what I feel needs to happen.

[Devon_v]

Personally I run Intel heavy and can usually find ambushes with 5-6 days on them and just Intel boost to get a larger squad into them. Not 10, but 7-8, sure.

Reflex actions for pods are 0/25/33/33% by difficulty.

[trihero]

We're looking at three things on this:

1) Reducing max allowed squad size to 8
2) Requiring a minimum infiltration % to start the mission in concealment
3) Requiring a minimum infiltration % or else the enemies start in yellow alert (able to shoot on activation)

If you want some more feedback on this, for one thing it would to good to know what exactly the goal is. Is the goal to make 0% infiltration outright impossible? Twice as hard as currently? Do you want only say 5% of players to be able to do them well? What is the goal?

Without knowing the goal, I can give some limited guesswork which is that none of them alone will be enough of a deterrent.

1) will not change anything alone, because honestly I think people like joinrbs can do the work of 10 with 8. In my own practice, I find I usually have a couple "carry" guys who aren't doing much but soaking up exp anyways, so 8 instead of 10 alone doesn't provide a deterrent. It also makes it easier to find enough cover for everyone

2) doesn't really change much, the strategy is still find a corner and wait until someone runs into you. Since the mobs are not on yellow alert, the first pack then runs into you essentially behaves as if they had run into you while concealed

3) alone, doesn't change much because your first concealment ambush should be super effective, this essentially just makes it so you get maybe shot at once or twice extra in the entire mission (on that first ambush)

I would honestly guess just try all 3 simultaneously. I think it is OK at this point to punish a little bit too hard for 0% (I just don't ever want to go back to farming these things at this point) since you guys are also making more middle man stuff (smash and grab).

I'm not even sure all 3 is enough honestly because people will still bring a shinobi who does start in concealment and you can create all sorts of shenanigans with that cherrypicking good ambush points.

[wobuffet]

2) Requiring a minimum infiltration % to start the mission in concealment

Probably not practical, but one idea would be % infiltration = % of your squad that starts concealed
(rounded probabilistically to one of the nearest integers,
e.g. 4 soldiers who achieve 55% infiltration start with 2 concealed and a small chance of 3 concealed).

Another idea is to have alien detection ranges at very low infiltration rates be very very large (i.e., make the infiltration–detection radius relationship non-linear).