Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

The Boz
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by The Boz »

Remove infiltration from those missions.
There. Done. Fixed.
Hazelnut
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:00 pm

Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Hazelnut »

WHat about if less than 50% infil, you start with 2 pods in sight range and no concealment - good luck with that ! :)
nightwyrm
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by nightwyrm »

My view on this issue is that I detect these things so late there's very little difference between 0% and max possible infiltration anyways. When a Supply Raid has 1-2 days left, what am I gonna do? Send a lone Shinobi? So I'm going with 10 men and that of course mean I get like 10% infiltration max and I might as well go on 0% to save that 1 day of infiltration time.

Even if I want to infiltrate more, it often isn't possible anyways.
LordYanaek
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by LordYanaek »

Hazelnut wrote:WHat about if less than 50% infil, you start with 2 pods in sight range and no concealment - good luck with that ! :)
nightwyrm wrote:My view on this issue is that I detect these things so late there's very little difference between 0% and max possible infiltration anyways. When a Supply Raid has 1-2 days left, what am I gonna do? Send a lone Shinobi? So I'm going with 10 men and that of course mean I get like 10% infiltration max and I might as well go on 0% to save that 1 day of infiltration time.
Exactly! The way those missions are detected right now means you must either do them at very low infiltration or not do them at all 95% of the time so why not remove infiltration and get with a much easier balancing process rather than try to punish players who actually do them. Making them impossibly hard at 0% isn't really helping, better remove them for good if that's the way it goes :evil:
justdont
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by justdont »

LordYanaek wrote:Making them impossibly hard at 0% isn't really helping, better remove them for good if that's the way it goes :evil:
They aren't even "impossibly hard", the only thing you need is a good enough team - amount of aliens stops to be a problem with decently trained soldiers. Although you can still be screwed by map RNG, some maps are extremely unfriendly to slow overwatch grind.

It's the matter of getting loot that interferes with infiltration here. Why wait and lose several corpses (which could be sold for A LOT of supplies if you happen to timely roll double price on advent soldier corpses), when you can just kill everyone immediately for more loot? In many cases you can shave off 2-3 alert levels from a raid mission, and even 5-6 with the infiltration boost, but there's literally no reason to do so.
Manifest
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Manifest »

LordYanaek wrote: Sounds like you were lucky not being detected considering the insane detection radius of drones at 0% infiltration. You're right however that it's often (rather than always) possible to find a decent high ground if you're willing to spend some time exploring the map on supply convoys, reaching them unnoticed can be another story.
THIS is also the worst part of having to do 0% supply raids. I can do them better, and I could make them easier by scouting every pod, finding the best spot, and waiting for the perfect trench gun/flamethrower ambush, when all the other pods are farther away but it

Takes.
So.
Long.

Patience is a virtue sure, but supply raids are some of my most frequent missions since my intel sector has such high vigilance. This means I just get supply raid after supply raid, and I should not be incentivized to skip them simply because I don't want to spend three hours positioning. I understand it's a "long war" but that means more battles, not 3 hour battles. It's so exhausting and having more free time is not a skill.
nightwyrm
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by nightwyrm »

Playing on Vet but I still try infiltrate as much as I could. I don't miss the extra corpses much at my current point in the campaign but I get BORED after killing the 5th 8-men pod and just want it to be over. Sectoid Commander makes even it worse since I have to kill almost everything twice!
LordYanaek
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by LordYanaek »

justdont wrote: They aren't even "impossibly hard", the only thing you need is a good enough team...
Read my post again, i never said they are impossibly hard, i was answering to some suggestions (maybe it was just a joke) to make them impossibly hard with low infiltration.
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Valaska
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Valaska »

Severian wrote:Or easier still, remove infiltration entirely for these missions (except maybe HQ). It doesn't make sense narratively that you should be able to wait anyway.
This makes a lot of sense to me for the supply raids etc. They are always out in the open etc.
cmdrspyker92
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by cmdrspyker92 »

The Boz wrote:Remove infiltration from those missions.
There. Done. Fixed.
Coming in hot sounds like it should be a thing. In general, I don't think the infiltration modifier for this mission should be a thing, you rarely see them with enough time anyway, and the reward is too big to bow to the modifier.
(Supply raids) should be a max squad vs max aliens, blow everything up, slug fest. Or hot drop in / blow up multiple targets / get out.

Conversely, I think HQ's are fine right now. You're going to pay a blood price on those missions with or without infiltration timers. The sheer quantity of enemies will mean that, and oh god that advent general.

I do think Troop columns could be adjusted, maybe to where 1 big command (See: 8 dudes) squad has a ridiculous detection radius and can't easily be snuck up on. But the rest of the formation can. That way you can sneak in and get the traditional stealth feel, but you're still going to have to duke it out with the troop columns commanding officer.
BarmaleyN
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Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:59 am

Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by BarmaleyN »

Return back to its old panic soldiers on missions and time will not be needed to capture resources. :lol:
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IcySaltyHart-mobile.mp4
:lol: mission on time do not need :lol:
Kahvipannu
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Kahvipannu »

Removing concealment (if possible) for very low infiltration would probably make it way less tempting to go straight in. At least more so in the early game.
Saph7
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Saph7 »

The Boz wrote:Remove infiltration from those missions.
There. Done. Fixed.
This does seem to be the obvious solution. Make them like Retaliations, where you can bring a big squad but you don't get to infil. It makes more sense narratively as well, since you're supposed to be raiding a convoy that the Resistance has stopped/attacked/derailed. It's kind of ridiculous that ADVENT is just leaving these disabled transports hanging around in the wilderness for 2-6 days or whatever . . .
Nagul
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Nagul »

I think we can add UFO to the list of abuse, the timer is a non-issue with a shinobi and then it resumes to be just another supply raid with an even better map layout. Just did twice UFO 0% in a row.
Stroggus
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Stroggus »

I`d say it is an issue not in some missions, but in late balance in general. When you hit those MSGTs they just complete wreck EVERYTHING with NO problems. You are too OP late game, it doesn`t matter really how much and how tough enemies you are facing, you just gonna snowball them all. I mean it is fun for a while, but MSGTs really needs to be toned down and (or) late game enemies to receive serious buffs.
brunodema
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by brunodema »

Stroggus wrote:I`d say it is an issue not in some missions, but in late balance in general. When you hit those MSGTs they just complete wreck EVERYTHING with NO problems. You are too OP late game, it doesn`t matter really how much and how tough enemies you are facing, you just gonna snowball them all. I mean it is fun for a while, but MSGTs really needs to be toned down and (or) late game enemies to receive serious buffs.
Sometimes I miss LW1 Ethereals, Muton Elites or even Mechtoids, because even in late game you could still be one shot by them. I don't know if there's any late game enemy in LW2 that can one shot a Warden soldier (that's a terrifying thought, but everyone that plays LW enjoys a bit of pain).
Alketi
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Alketi »

What EASY-MODE Troop Column is everyone else getting??

My Troop Columns seem to be on an absolutely tiny, urban maps with every pod overlapping.

I ran a 6-man vs a Moderate enemy force (19-21) and got absolute annihilated by a 12-mob pull (8-pod boss mob with a 4-man trailer) followed a few turns later by a subsequent 4-mob activation. Partly bad luck, partly my fault via a couple of mistakes, but none of it was "easy". The map looked to be 1/4 of the size of a typical prison-break map. GG.
trihero
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by trihero »

UFOs tend to have a nastier composition; I've noted they almost always have an 8 man alien pod lead by a codex. And the elerium/alloy reward at the same seems the same as a normal supply raid.

I wonder what happens if you let the timer go down - is it instant loss or is it one of those infinite reinforcement situations?

I wouldn't call turning off the console with a shinobi on 0% infiltration easy; the enemy line of sight is huge and the interior is packed with aliens. Or maybe I'm missing something you could point out that makes it easy?
JackDT
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by JackDT »

Manifest wrote:
LordYanaek wrote: Sounds like you were lucky not being detected considering the insane detection radius of drones at 0% infiltration. You're right however that it's often (rather than always) possible to find a decent high ground if you're willing to spend some time exploring the map on supply convoys, reaching them unnoticed can be another story.
THIS is also the worst part of having to do 0% supply raids. I can do them better, and I could make them easier by scouting every pod, finding the best spot, and waiting for the perfect trench gun/flamethrower ambush, when all the other pods are farther away but it

Takes.
So.
Long.

Patience is a virtue sure, but supply raids are some of my most frequent missions since my intel sector has such high vigilance. This means I just get supply raid after supply raid, and I should not be incentivized to skip them simply because I don't want to spend three hours positioning. I understand it's a "long war" but that means more battles, not 3 hour battles. It's so exhausting and having more free time is not a skill.
I feel the same and it's why I appreciate timers, awkward as they may be. If there's an annoying and boring way to play optimally I have to fight myself not to do it and end up hating the game.
Jacke
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Jacke »

Saph7 wrote:It's kind of ridiculous that ADVENT is just leaving these disabled transports hanging around in the wilderness for 2-6 days or whatever . . .
They may be aliens, but red tape and stiffing the troops at the sharp end is universal. :D

Haven't gotten to any of these missions yet, so I can't personally comment. Like Tactical Dark Events, does seem that the game balance is knife-edge, with it going heavy one side or the other and shifting from minor changes.
Nagul
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by Nagul »

trihero wrote:UFOs tend to have a nastier composition; I've noted they almost always have an 8 man alien pod lead by a codex. And the elerium/alloy reward at the same seems the same as a normal supply raid.

I wonder what happens if you let the timer go down - is it instant loss or is it one of those infinite reinforcement situations?

I wouldn't call turning off the console with a shinobi on 0% infiltration easy; the enemy line of sight is huge and the interior is packed with aliens. Or maybe I'm missing something you could point out that makes it easy?
In veteran I have 20 turns after activation to turn off the beacon. Which is plenty of time to:

1) Wipe out almost every enemy pod. Map layout is very favorable so you shouldn't have any difficulty doing so.
2) Wait at the right time to ghoswalk-hack the console if needed. With ghostwalk enemies need to be at less than 2 squares of you to detect you. So it's unlikely to get caught. Put an emergency life support anyways in case things go wrong.

If I remember correctly you can also walk on the ceiling thanks to a spider armor and drop down directly to the beacon.
trihero
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by trihero »

Oh I see, you aren't solo shinobing, you wipe out most of the pods first then sneak in. That's not what I understood by solo shinobi turning off the console.

I wonder if ye old shredder gun through the wall kills the console like it did in vanilla.
marco.costa
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by marco.costa »

I think one thing that could be done is increase the granularity of infiltration breakpoints affecting alien strength below 100% infiltration, so that 98% stays pretty much as is now, while 0% becomes something like swarming squared.

That said, with the current AI behavior and state of the game, there is a limit as to how much difficulty you can get by just putting more enemies on the map, due to concealed start and no turn limits, so this problem remains, imho.

ADVENT tanks, maybe? lol
trihero
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by trihero »

There's no point to "nerfing" or making 0% harder than it is in a vaccuum, because the end result is we go on few missions ever and we don't have the option to go loud if we want to. You have to do something in addition to make up for it, like make 5-6 men missions much more plausible and much more frequent to make up for the lack of missions we can go on.
LordYanaek
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Re: Suggested fix to supply raid, troop column, HQ 0% infiltration abuse

Post by LordYanaek »

trihero wrote:There's no point to "nerfing" or making 0% harder than it is in a vaccuum
Exactly. I don't really understand why people want to make supply raid harder with 0% infiltration given the fact that we hardly have any other options than attempting them at 0%
There are lots of complains about too much stealth missions, yet there are people who ask that the few non-stealth missions we actually do are made impossible :shock:
Nerfing 0% infiltration raids would be an option if non-zero infiltration raids were an option to begin with! When you can't infiltrate them, if you make them impossible without infiltration, you could actually remove them completely from the game.
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