[Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

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Pryda4ever
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[Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Pryda4ever »

Hi everyone! First of all I want to thank Pavonis Interactive for giving us these great mods (Long War 1 Xcom 2012, Long War 2 Xcom 2 2016) that improve so much the original game.

My suggestion is introduce Shivs again, obviously everything depends on the Big Studio to create them. I understand that in a long war where many soldiers are constantly needed, robotic allies like these can help us to complete a group more easily. Apart from their skills, they can support with medium cover.

Also they can have a great survival using Smoke grenade, Aid protocol in them and can be repaired by the Grenadiers (Engineers in Xcom 2012)

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About as evacuation missions in high areas of buildings, could be solved adding propulsion system to the Shivs (after all, 20 years have passed since the last war, technological advances could have made it as possible perfectly), or Shivs directly near to the stairs be allowed to climb without animation, or adding Hover Shivs (Flying Shiv version)

This would make a game more extensive and entertaining and would continue more faithfully the main story, where years ago shivs were used on the battlefield, why now they disappeared?

Thanks!

Gameplay S.H.I.V.S Xcom Enemy Unknown

Xcom The SHIV War- Geordy Jones


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Last edited by Pryda4ever on Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:52 am, edited 6 times in total.
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warbrand2
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by warbrand2 »

really miss these little bots. surprised the port mods haven't brought them over. though I can easily see why. xcom two has a different terrain then xcom1. more cliffs, they would need the treads replaced with something like the crisilids legs.
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8wayz
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by 8wayz »

SHIVs are great in open terrain and in breaching UFOs, since they can block a door if need be.

Open terrain means that the enemy has less cover to choose from and is easier to flank.

In XCOM 2 a good part of the battles are urban and thus there is a lot of cover, obstacles and what not. A Shiv would be really poor in such an environment.

SPARKs fill that gap and they can easily destroy cover as well. Plus they are more mobile than SHIVs and can climb to higher terrain easily.
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warbrand2
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by warbrand2 »

hmm, strange idea but what if the top half of the shiv's where salvaged into a deployible defensive item like a turret.

Would make their return useful as something that can be dropped down and hold the line. especially if their weapon is just a cannon. though it would need a stand.
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8wayz
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by 8wayz »

There are already turrets in-game, there is even a special building to enable be on Avenger defence. :)

In missions they will be useless for a couple of reasons:
- Timers.
- Dropping down the turret means that you will have to pick it somehow afterwards. As 3/4 of the missions you play are not on your terms and thus you can loot after the mission, the turret will be left behind.
- ADVENT turrets. If you need a turret, just hack one. They now have Squadsight, so they are pretty valuable. ;)
- Hacking MECs. With the ability to permanently hack an ADVENT Mec, you really do not need any turrets.
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warbrand2
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by warbrand2 »

And with that all reasoning for a shiv was lost.
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Pryda4ever
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Pryda4ever »

8wayz wrote:SHIVs are great in open terrain and in breaching UFOs, since they can block a door if need be.

Open terrain means that the enemy has less cover to choose from and is easier to flank.

In XCOM 2 a good part of the battles are urban and thus there is a lot of cover, obstacles and what not. A Shiv would be really poor in such an environment.

SPARKs fill that gap and they can easily destroy cover as well. Plus they are more mobile than SHIVs and can climb to higher terrain easily.
Shivs with supression + Tactical Sense (+5 Def for each enemy max 20%)+ Heat Ammo are awesome. And If you want shivs for use in elevated terrain don´t remember that exists Hover Shivs xD, they could fly and take positions higher than Spark:

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8wayz
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by 8wayz »

You do know that there is an important difference between hovering and flying, right ? ;)

Also Hover SHIVS were end-game toys, you have a long way to go till you reach them. All other SHIVs will just be target practice for the aliens.

Remember also that in XCOM 2 you can customize weapons, something from which the SPARK suffers and the SHIVs will suffer even worse.
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Pryda4ever
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Pryda4ever »

8wayz wrote:You do know that there is an important difference between hovering and flying, right ? ;)

Also Hover SHIVS were end-game toys, you have a long way to go till you reach them. All other SHIVs will just be target practice for the aliens.

Remember also that in XCOM 2 you can customize weapons, something from which the SPARK suffers and the SHIVs will suffer even worse.
hovering right xD but they can reach good positions. Normal Shivs+ Tactical Sense+ aid protocol with improved Gremlin = 45-60% Defense, if you take the mission as I usually do, 2 Specialists (Hacker and Healer) you can spam aid protocol in it, so it will be very difficult to receive damage, and for the rest of group you can use Smoke Grenade and full cover (Last 3 turns)
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8wayz
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by 8wayz »

Well, you can always make them work. But the main question remains - can they be better than SPARKs and soldiers with customizable weapons ?

One of the conundrums in Long War 1 was actually designing the SHIVs to play some role, as they could not compare favourably with MECs.

What can a SHIV do that a MEC/SPARK can not do better ?

The tactic you mentioned works even better on SHIVs, since they can just jump to higher elevation and have very good overwatch perks. They can also go melee if need be, unlike SHIVs.
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RADIALTHRONE1
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by RADIALTHRONE1 »

We could always make them units to deploy during the Avenger Defense mission (like the turrets) as well as a unit that you create as a Haven defense (like hacked MECs).

Having them only appear in these situations combats most of the arguments against them (terrain, turn time, etc). Especially if you could designate which Haven they're deployed to (which to my knowledge the MEC just goes to the Haven of the region the mission is in). This makes them somewhat more viable than hacked MECs due to the Permanent Hack ability being the last rank in the specialist tree.

Not to mention the Spark being a paid DLC unit, not everyone has access to them.
Sines
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Sines »

8wayz wrote:What can a SHIV do that a MEC/SPARK can not do better ?
SHIVs have a very obvious role that soldiers and SPARKs do not. Disposability. In XCOM 1, they are upgraded as a whole, and do not gain experience. When they die, you lose solely the SHIV itself. This means you can do very dangerous things with them, and not be too worried about losing them. They were also better than inexperienced soldiers in equivalent gear, so they were decent fillers when you had a surprise mission you can't skip when your best soldiers were injured or fatigued (or infiltrating in LW2).

It's not a grand or glorious goal, but it is there.

With 1.1 pushing back SPARK acquisition, then like LW1 late game MEC, you had only SHIVs to fill the 'tanky unit that doesn't need cover' role. If SHIVs can be a basic no research needed proving ground project, then you'd be able to field them relatively soon

Late game, you'll probably not use SHIVs all that much, but it's that early game disposable tank that has a good place.
ConradKurze
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by ConradKurze »

I think SHIVs would be awesome, but its probably too expensive (from a development standpoint). They'd have to make the models from scratch, animate them, make all new items for them, give them advancement trees (or add new Proving Grounds Projects for them), etc.

But it'd be awesome if they were added :)
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8wayz
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by 8wayz »

I am not sure you know what exactly you are asking for. :)

Back in Long War 1 Pavonis tried to make SHIVs valuable, but the main argument against them was that they can not gain experience and progress. Thus they went for the compromise to make utility items that grant certain perks.

SHIVs were very limited in scope mostly because of their inability to be easily customized via perks and to gain experience. There was even the argument that they are wasting XP which can be used to progress a regular MEC or soldier.
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Insufferable Smartypants
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Insufferable Smartypants »

There was an argument, but it wasn't a very good one. A dead rookie gains no XP. I nearly always tried to have a shiv on a mission. Its purpose was to keep my troopers alive by any means possible.

The shiv itself did not always return from the mission intact, but it was very good at fulfilling the role that I had assigned it.
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Valaska
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Valaska »

Hrm, I dunno I like the Spark's now that Pavonis made them make sense. Shiv's I've always disliked.
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Pryda4ever
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Pryda4ever »

8wayz wrote:I am not sure you know what exactly you are asking for. :)

Back in Long War 1 Pavonis tried to make SHIVs valuable, but the main argument against them was that they can not gain experience and progress. Thus they went for the compromise to make utility items that grant certain perks.

SHIVs were very limited in scope mostly because of their inability to be easily customized via perks and to gain experience. There was even the argument that they are wasting XP which can be used to progress a regular MEC or soldier.
- Shivs are cheaper than Spark.

- Many people don´t have Dlc Shen´s Last Gift.

- Can be very useful in the beginning of the game, especially with soldiers with low aim and health

- When you have the Barracks deteriorated with many injured or in other infiltrations and a mission appears, you can fill those holes with Shivs

- Even Pavonis (Glorious Devs xDD) can introduce the same propulsion than spark to climb buildings o something similar like this:

Image Xcom EU

so they could be used in all missions.
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8wayz
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by 8wayz »

Well, let us see about those, shall we ? :)

- The price of SHIVs and SPARKS is down to the devs. They can make them as expensive as they like. In truth though SHIVs were more expensive to maintain since most of the utility items they could equip were only usable by SHIVs. Thus you had to spend a good amount of resources to make SHIVs viable in the field.

- We do not know how many have it or not. In XCOM 1 a lot of people ended up buying the Enemy Within Expansion and thus Pavonis had to take into account the balance between SHIVs and MECs. As time goes by, more and more players will get that DLC.

- When you have wounded soldiers, you can take SPARKs as they can enter a mission even when damaged. This was not the case for SHIVs in Long War 1. And SPARKs will earn experience, making them better in the long run.

- They can not add a certain ability to the SHIVs as it uses specific animations. There is a reason why the SHIVs did not get the Jet-Boot Module perk - the animations made were only for MECs. This is a very important point - if you want to import SHIVs, you will need to do some custom animations, since there are now new abilities, situations and what not. I am not sure that Pavonis have the funds, or the resources to make custom animations at the moment.
Narcissistic_Martyr
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Narcissistic_Martyr »

Ok... am I the only one who basically completely ditched meat bags after getting the suppression upgrade for the shivs?

Because... all shiv squads were kind of silly strong in my experience.
Kail
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Kail »

The only thing I would like to see for sparks at this point is proving grounds upgrades for em. Yes I am aware there is a mod for this but I would like to see Pavonis's take on them.
Other then that I don't think SHIVs are needed.
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Shadow86
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Shadow86 »

SHIVs never really fit in the new games, thanks in part to the squad limits. Even though that restriction is lessened in LW1 and 2, truth is they're not quite expendable, as they require a significant investment of time and resources that could otherwise be devoted to soldiers and their gear. And you're particularly strapped for supplies in these mods. As others have said as well, they indirectly rob troopers of XP they could use to grow stronger.

Conceptually, they were transplanted from the original games, but the devs failed to realize they'd be hard-pressed to be effective in these new circumstances. Back in the day, there was always room for HWPs in the Skyranger and funds weren't particularly scarce. In addition, since cover was largely non-existent, and soldiers could shoot anything as long as they had a clear line of fire, HWPs were fantastic target spotters and obstacle destroyers. Proper usage meant avoiding offensive actions with them unless strictly necessary. I mean, beyond depriving soldiers of valuable experience, HWPs were never tanks despite their name, and could take no more than 2-3 hits. So you had to keep them out of sight whenever possible.

Most of what made HWPs effective is gone in the new games: there's not much point in spotting given the presence of cover and pod activation, and the absence of universal squadsight and precise TU management (no more popping in and out). SHIVs are just as vulnerable and can't use cover when most everyone and their mother can, making them less durable than even a squishy soldier in good cover. So they end up being forced to carry out mostly offensive duties, which was never what made them truly valuable, with sub-optimal survivability to boot.

SHIVs could only feasibly return if they were made more support-oriented (marking targets, cover destruction, AoE damage, flashbang, smoke, etc.), if they enhanced the soldiers' ability to fight, like they used to.
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Pryda4ever
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Pryda4ever »

I understand the pros and cons and my intention is not generate a discussion about if Shivs yes or not, my proposal is that we could have the choice of being able to use them on the battlefield, and if you do not want to create or use them don´t do it! Nobody forces you, However, other people will see it as a good option, so the game will be more complete
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Shadow86
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Shadow86 »

Pryda4ever wrote:I understand the pros and cons and my intention is not generate a discussion about if Shivs yes or not, my proposal is that we could have the choice of being able to use them on the battlefield, and if you do not want to create or use them don´t do it! Nobody forces you, However, other people will see it as a good option, so the game will be more complete
This isn't really a simple like/dislike matter, and if you're posting a suggestion on a public forum, you can expect discussion to take place.

If you'd rather not have your proposal debated by forum users, you might as well just email it directly to Pavonis and hope they agree with your perspective.
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Pryda4ever
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Pryda4ever »

Shadow86 wrote:
Pryda4ever wrote:I understand the pros and cons and my intention is not generate a discussion about if Shivs yes or not, my proposal is that we could have the choice of being able to use them on the battlefield, and if you do not want to create or use them don´t do it! Nobody forces you, However, other people will see it as a good option, so the game will be more complete
This isn't really a simple like/dislike matter, and if you're posting a suggestion on a public forum, you can expect discussion to take place.

If you'd rather not have your proposal debated by forum users, you might as well just email it directly to Pavonis and hope they agree with your perspective.
Hi :) I didn´t send an email because I wanted to make it public so more people could see it, of course anyone can say what they want, it´s free xD, only I wanted to point out that my intention was to see if any Dev would answer us, nothing more, i just want to help to make a better game ;)

The example is like having a character in a role-playing game, you have agility, strength, stealth, intelligence, 2-handed weapons, canes, swords etc, you will only choose what you like but if the rest of skills are not implemented, the game would be less customizable.

And already they have cut many things, only compares the classics xcom with now...
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Geordy
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Re: [Suggestion] Introduce S.H.I.V.S

Post by Geordy »

I took on a whole Long War 1 campaign with a heavy emphasis on my little friends the Alloy SHIVs. Almost all missions would see at least 4-5 of them together with one or two 100% support engineer to repair and smoke. It was a blast! Speaking of which: beware the RIFT!! :mrgreen:

So my point is: they are totally viable with a little outside-the-box-thinking. You need more convincing? You can watch the whole thing on youtube:
Link to the first video on the playlist.
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