Why I don't like Timers (and a suggestion)

[sarge945]

This is just my opinion, obviously other people may think differently. I appreciate constructive criticism on this idea.

XCOM 2's timers have always, in my opinion, been somewhat detrimental to the game, as they encourage a sprint-recklessly-to-the-end style of gameplay. At the same time, I appreciate them preventing overwatch camping.

Many Long War 2 players have been suggesting a blanket increase in timers. Unfortunately, this isn't very granular, and doesn't seem to be the intention of the developers. Increasing a timer even by 2 turns can change a mission from being shit-your-pants scary to being quite easy. On the other hand, Long War 2's timers are so close to the wire that on some larger maps, completing the objective can be outright impossible, especially with map packs. One turn can make the difference between getting all your soldiers out and completing the objective, or having the equivalent of a total party wipe. This is extremely black and white, and one well-placed flashbang from the enemy can make or break your entire mission. It doesn't feel fair, and worse, it doesn't feel fun.

I think the ideal solution would be to have a more granular approach to how timers work. I think it would be cool to have a "high alert" phase, where reinforcements will arrive every turn. On High Alert, the force level would also be increased, so that more difficult enemies are being dropped in to help out the lower end troops. The overall mission timer would be doubled as a result (maybe not doubled, maybe a 50% increase, It would depend on balance). High Alert will not trigger while you're in concealment, but will trigger the turn you break concealment if you are already past the countdown.

Lets say in current LW2, you have 8 turns to rescue a VIP or you fail. Instead, you would have 16 turns to rescue the VIP, but the enemy would be on high alert after 8 turns, constantly sending reinforcements turn after turn.

This could also give the players more control over mission timers - infiltration could influence the ratio of high alert turns to mission fail turns, and certain Dark Events could decrease the ratio - so instead of a mission being 8/8, it could instead become 6/10.

I think this would put an end to the really cheap feeling "instant fail" missions that we get now, while still encouraging the squad to get a move on, and still forcing the mission to have a designated end, which allows the "interceptors approaching" story element to still make sense.

This would have the practical effect of allowing you to get your last rookie to the skyranger, while still preventing highly defensive play.

[JLtheking]

This is a good idea. Maybe, as an extra punish, you give these red alert RNFs the ability have reflex actions the turn they deploy. That is, shoot your soldiers. You ARE supposed to have evac-ed by turn 8, after all.

[Arcalane]

I'm not entirely convinced. For one, this has a huge impact on stealth ops, which LW2 has gone to fairly long lengths to permit by stripping out various bits of AI pathing bullshit, and which already require a greater degree of planning and patience than most missions. Now you're telling me that, after 200% infiltration, ADVENT are now somehow flipping into super-high-alert out of nowhere and are going to be swarming like crazy if I happen to take a little too long?

At least tie it to concealment status as well.

[sarge945]

At least tie it to concealment status as well.

Makes sense. Added to OP

[ScorpZero]

In the beginning I was about to increase timers to something like 99 values, as I don't like them but then I have found http://www.nexusmods.com/xcom2/mods/57/? this one mode which has changed my mind and now I think that timers are okay. :O Because, for real, why do Advents should hurry to do... whatever they do if there is actually nothing to worry about in that moment?

[Garthor]

Because, as every single mission states at the halfway point, they know that the SKYRANGER is in the area. So they are sending INTERCEPTORS (not troop ships) to shoot it down. They know this because while your soldiers can generally hide on the ground, your huge troop transport cannot. This is why there is a hard timer.

[Jacke]

In the beginning I was about to increase timers to something like 99 values, as I don't like them but then I have found http://www.nexusmods.com/xcom2/mods/57/? this one mode which has changed my mind and now I think that timers are okay. :O Because, for real, why do Advents should hurry to do... whatever they do if there is actually nothing to worry about in that moment?

That "True Concealment" mod appears to be the same as this one from Steam Workshop, which says it isn't currently compatible with Long War 2.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =618077830

Couldn't find it on Nexusmods, but here's "True Concealment for LW2" on Steam Workshop.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =847481752

[Sentenryu]

Because, as every single mission states at the halfway point, they know that the SKYRANGER is in the area. So they are sending INTERCEPTORS (not troop ships) to shoot it down. They know this because while your soldiers can generally hide on the ground, your huge troop transport cannot. This is why there is a hard timer.

So that's why it takes 4 turns for said skyranger to get there and pick you up?

[LeaderEnemyBoss]

This is just my opinion, obviously other people may think differently. I appreciate constructive criticism on this idea.

XCOM 2's timers have always, in my opinion, been somewhat detrimental to the game, as they encourage a sprint-recklessly-to-the-end style of gameplay. At the same time, I appreciate them preventing overwatch camping.

Many Long War 2 players have been suggesting a blanket increase in timers. Unfortunately, this isn't very granular, and doesn't seem to be the intention of the developers. Increasing a timer even by 2 turns can change a mission from being shit-your-pants scary to being quite easy. On the other hand, Long War 2's timers are so close to the wire that on some larger maps, completing the objective can be outright impossible, especially with map packs. One turn can make the difference between getting all your soldiers out and completing the objective, or having the equivalent of a total party wipe. This is extremely black and white, and one well-placed flashbang from the enemy can make or break your entire mission. It doesn't feel fair, and worse, it doesn't feel fun.

I think the ideal solution would be to have a more granular approach to how timers work. I think it would be cool to have a "high alert" phase, where reinforcements will arrive every turn. On High Alert, the force level would also be increased, so that more difficult enemies are being dropped in to help out the lower end troops. The overall mission timer would be doubled as a result (maybe not doubled, maybe a 50% increase, It would depend on balance). High Alert will not trigger while you're in concealment, but will trigger the turn you break concealment if you are already past the countdown.

Lets say in current LW2, you have 8 turns to rescue a VIP or you fail. Instead, you would have 16 turns to rescue the VIP, but the enemy would be on high alert after 8 turns, constantly sending reinforcements turn after turn.

This could also give the players more control over mission timers - infiltration could influence the ratio of high alert turns to mission fail turns, and certain Dark Events could decrease the ratio - so instead of a mission being 8/8, it could instead become 6/10.

I think this would put an end to the really cheap feeling "instant fail" missions that we get now, while still encouraging the squad to get a move on, and still forcing the mission to have a designated end, which allows the "interceptors approaching" story element to still make sense.

This would have the practical effect of allowing you to get your last rookie to the skyranger, while still preventing highly defensive play.

So instead of having the option to recognize the futility of a lost mission and bail you just get swarmed by enemies and lose your whole squad? I fail to recognize how this would counter the sprint-recklessly-to-the-end playstyle, as it is even more punishing in the end. I dont think this is as good of an idea as you think it is. But then again i rarely have problems with the timer, in my ongoing campaign I lost one missions out of 30 or so due to timers. I would strongly discourage people from using mappacks that obviously dont seem to care about balance.

[ff03k64]

So that's why it takes 4 turns for said skyranger to get there and pick you up?

They can't be close enough that the Advent know exactly where your troops are.

[Zarnak]

The suggestion kind of exists in the form of a mod already.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... t=Guerilla

I tried it a while ago and it was harder then timers. You were looking at four pods of four as reinforcements every turn if you dallied too long after breaking concealment. The author of the mod also had it set for every mission. The first blacksite pretty much ended your campaign.

[ShockmasterFred]

This is just my opinion, obviously other people may think differently. I appreciate constructive criticism on this idea.

XCOM 2's timers have always, in my opinion, been somewhat detrimental to the game, as they encourage a sprint-recklessly-to-the-end style of gameplay. At the same time, I appreciate them preventing overwatch camping.

Many Long War 2 players have been suggesting a blanket increase in timers. Unfortunately, this isn't very granular, and doesn't seem to be the intention of the developers. Increasing a timer even by 2 turns can change a mission from being shit-your-pants scary to being quite easy. On the other hand, Long War 2's timers are so close to the wire that on some larger maps, completing the objective can be outright impossible, especially with map packs. One turn can make the difference between getting all your soldiers out and completing the objective, or having the equivalent of a total party wipe. This is extremely black and white, and one well-placed flashbang from the enemy can make or break your entire mission. It doesn't feel fair, and worse, it doesn't feel fun.

I think the ideal solution would be to have a more granular approach to how timers work. I think it would be cool to have a "high alert" phase, where reinforcements will arrive every turn. On High Alert, the force level would also be increased, so that more difficult enemies are being dropped in to help out the lower end troops. The overall mission timer would be doubled as a result (maybe not doubled, maybe a 50% increase, It would depend on balance). High Alert will not trigger while you're in concealment, but will trigger the turn you break concealment if you are already past the countdown.

Lets say in current LW2, you have 8 turns to rescue a VIP or you fail. Instead, you would have 16 turns to rescue the VIP, but the enemy would be on high alert after 8 turns, constantly sending reinforcements turn after turn.

This could also give the players more control over mission timers - infiltration could influence the ratio of high alert turns to mission fail turns, and certain Dark Events could decrease the ratio - so instead of a mission being 8/8, it could instead become 6/10.

I think this would put an end to the really cheap feeling "instant fail" missions that we get now, while still encouraging the squad to get a move on, and still forcing the mission to have a designated end, which allows the "interceptors approaching" story element to still make sense.

This would have the practical effect of allowing you to get your last rookie to the skyranger, while still preventing highly defensive play.

16 turns? More if you haven't broken concealment? How easy can you make it? Also, the devs should not be under any obligation to balance the timers for map packs. If you can't complete timed missions because of those maps, disable them. I don't see why if you are going to add this reinforcements mechanic that makes the game significantly easier, you would then extend the timers. If anything, you should shorten them by a turn or two, meaning that if you don't sprint, you will have to engage in a tough firefight. The reinforcement idea also doesn't work if only one pod is dropped. It would have to be multiple pods that can shoot when they are dropped.
I think the timers were the best mechanic introduced in X2. That said, I'm not saying that there might not be alternatives to them, but every suggestion I see is always a massive nerf in the games difficulty, which just reinforces the idea that it's not timers that are the problem, but the players skill level.

[mustangdood]

Your % infiltration should give you bonus turns, but never reduce turns.

You should not use a turn while the entire squad is concealed.

The Intervention skill is actually a great idea, but the cost is too high to be practically used until end game. Why not just remove the intel cost, and then you have a very useful skill.

Lastly, you don't have to be bound to anyone else's poor ideas. You can edit the .ini and add bonus turns per difficulty level to suit what you believe is reasonable.

[Garthor]

Adding turns with better infiltration is silly. You're already effectively getting more time by having fewer enemies to go through, so why compound that by giving you EVEN MORE time? The end result would either be missions that are impossible to shoot through on anything less than 200% infiltration, or 200% infiltration missions that you can literally just stroll through without effort.

[8wayz]

Ummm, I am currently swimming in Intel, about 200 in mid-June on Commander. I can contact 2 regions and still have enough to boost a mission and then during the course of it to add extra turns. Ten Intel is a reasonable price to pay for extra time to reach your objective.

See it this way - you spend some of the mission's reward (which is usually Intel) before hand, to be able to finish the mission.

You can modify the timers on missions to your heart's desire. Or simply lower the difficulty till you get used to the pace of the missions.