Ok...I am literally watching the AI cheat

[Viya]

Last night, I saw the AI alter its path over and over and over to avoid an ambush I had meticulously set. I had watched the AIs patrol pattern for a few rotations with a single concealed guy. I set up my main team ahead so the AI patrol would run into them, and then positioned a lone Sharpshooter way beyond visual range at 90 degrees to the side and at elevation. Suddenly, the AI deviates from their patrol pattern and starts walking towards my sniper. Thinking that was strange, I reloaded the scenario and the AI did the same thing. They walked towards my sniper and away from the ambush. I let it play out and the AI eventually walked up to my Sniper until they saw her. That was way too coincidental, so I swapped my Sniper and Ambush team's places....the AI reverted to its original patrol pattern. That is when I began to suspect that the AI knows exactly where I am at at all times even though I am in the Fog of War and the pod has not been activated or scampered.

Tonight, I watched as 3 patrols altered their patrol paths to keep my concealed team from being able to hack an objective without an engagement. I ran tests tonight. A lot of them. I saved a run at the very beginning and I attempted to get to the objective from various angles. Each time, the AI would shift and move units and patrol paths in an attempt to block my path.

In once instance, I finally made it to the train that had the computer I was supposed to hack. I put a guy on top of the train hidden behind a smoke stack or whatever as a patrol walked past perpendicular. When a patrol passed, on one side, I dropped to the other side...oh look, another patrol coming my direction. I waited behind cover and that patrol kept walking until it passed me and exposed me. I ran that scenario 10 times and 10 times it was the exact same result. So I reloaded the game and instead of getting up on the train, I stayed hidden on the ground where the first patrol was. The first patrol passed and didn't see me...but the patrol on the other side? They altered their patrol pattern and "decided" to jump on top of the train and exposed me from the high ground. I ran that scenario another 10 times and 10 times it was the exact...same...result. I redid the first scenario of staying on top of the train again JUST to make sure...and again, the second AI patrol stayed on the ground and kept walking until they exposed me by walking past me.

So the AI totally cheats the concealment mechanic too? Even though they can not see my units, they know exactly where my units are or at the very least, they know the vicinity of where my units are and will actively seek to block non-engagement tactics. I did NOT see this behavior in XCom Vanilla, but then I only played through it once before doing the LW2 mod.

This actually pisses me off.

Look...I don't have a problem with challenging games, but one thing that I do NOT like is when the AI break the clearly established mechanics in an attempt to make the AI look smarter than it is or to artificially inflate the difficulty of the game. In the end, the developers are failing to reward the player for their successful efforts and this seriously needs to be changed.

[mattprice516]

This is vanilla behavior removed in LW2 wherever we found it. Unfortunately, we missed a spot (blame us playtesters). That should be fixed in patch 1.1.

[Manifest]

This is vanilla behavior removed in LW2 wherever we found it. Unfortunately, we missed a spot (blame us playtesters). That should be fixed in patch 1.1.

What part of the behavior is being changed? Will enemies finally have no idea where you are as they patrol since stealth is such a crucial mechanic?

[mattprice516]

Enemies should no longer alter their patrol paths to intercept XCOM if XCOM has not broken concealment. This doesn't mean that they A) won't sometimes just change direction because they feel like it or B) won't still react to gunfire and explosive sounds, dead bodies, yelling civilians, etc. But the magical knowledge should be gone.

[Zloth]

Wow, I didn't even know that was something that needed to be fixed!

[Arcalane]

Enemies should no longer alter their patrol paths to intercept XCOM if XCOM has not broken concealment. This doesn't mean that they A) won't sometimes just change direction because they feel like it or B) won't still react to gunfire and explosive sounds, dead bodies, yelling civilians, etc. But the magical knowledge should be gone.

Hopefully this should avoid bizarre situations like the one I had the other day-- I tried to use a SpecOps X4 charge to cause a nice loud BANG on one side of the map, to draw the enemy's attention away from me, as arming and detonating the charges doesn't break concealment. Instead, all patrols began to converge on my still-concealed squad.

Thankfully my stealth team are as deadly as they are sneaky, so they still got away without too many scratches. But it was a little touch and go for a bit there.

[Manifest]

Enemies should no longer alter their patrol paths to intercept XCOM if XCOM has not broken concealment. This doesn't mean that they A) won't sometimes just change direction because they feel like it or B) won't still react to gunfire and explosive sounds, dead bodies, yelling civilians, etc. But the magical knowledge should be gone.

So if you're in stealth, whether you stand on one corner of the map, or the other, or if you're standing right behind the enemy, they should all move the same?

[Arcalane]

Should. After the patch, I did a stealth mission where I managed to assassinate a VIP without breaking stealth (tac. suppressor mod!) and whilst I could hear the patrols running around and going on watch and searching for me, they didn't run straight towards my stealth team either. Managed to make it out without being spotted.

I didn't have full vision of the map so I couldn't actually see where they were, but the fact that they didn't automagically run into me over the time it took me to loop around and reach the evac speaks for itself, I think.

[Devon_v]

In vanilla the AI continually repositions the pods to be on the line between you and the objective. If you try to flank it, all the pods will move to get back in between you and it. That behavior is removed. However there was an additional component where the AI could basically see your threat ranges and would intentionally "accidentally" wander into your troops to start the combat phase.

Firaxis intended concealment to simply be a means of ambushing the first pod. They never actually intended pure stealth to be a valid playstyle, so they programmed the AI to prevent you from just running the mission without combat. That's why all the mission objectives reveal you as well if you somehow reach them while still concealed.

It's a matter of finding all the little places were the AI was cheating and bypassing it.

[Viya]

This is vanilla behavior removed in LW2 wherever we found it. Unfortunately, we missed a spot (blame us playtesters). That should be fixed in patch 1.1.

Thank you for the response, explanation, AND the fix. Does this also fix the issue with the AI knowing where you are in the fog of war? In the first scenario I mentioned, my squad was not in concealment.

Firaxis intended concealment to simply be a means of ambushing the first pod. They never actually intended pure stealth to be a valid playstyle, so they programmed the AI to prevent you from just running the mission without combat. That's why all the mission objectives reveal you as well if you somehow reach them while still concealed.

I know that this isn't your team's fault, but I'm sorry...that is LAME to the point of being inexcusable. Frankly, I am surprised that this was not picked up on by the community and Firaxis flayed for it back when the game was released last year.

The concealment mechanic is a superb addition to the game...but look, if the developers have to blatantly cheat in order for it to work, then it should not have been in the game. Either that or the community should have been explicitly notified that the AI would do this as a means of balance. At least then, people would not wasting tons of their time trying to position their teams close to objectives when in fact, none of that mattered. I would have just ambushed the first pod and called it a day. I dunno. Feels deceptive, IMHO.

[Devon_v]

This is vanilla behavior removed in LW2 wherever we found it. Unfortunately, we missed a spot (blame us playtesters). That should be fixed in patch 1.1.

Thank you for the response, explanation, AND the fix. Does this also fix the issue with the AI knowing where you are in the fog of war? In the first scenario I mentioned, my squad was not in concealment.

Firaxis intended concealment to simply be a means of ambushing the first pod. They never actually intended pure stealth to be a valid playstyle, so they programmed the AI to prevent you from just running the mission without combat. That's why all the mission objectives reveal you as well if you somehow reach them while still concealed.

I know that this isn't your team's fault, but I'm sorry...that is LAME bto the point of being inexcusable. Frankly, I am surprised that this was not picked up on by the community and Firaxis flayed for it back when the game was released last year.

The concealment mechanic is a superb addition to the game...but look, if the developers have to blatantely cheat in order for it to work, then it should not have been in the game. Either that or the community should have been explicitly notified that the AI would do this as a means of balance. At least then, people would not wasting tons of their time trying to position their teams close to objectives when in fact, none of that mattered. I would have just ambushed the first pod and called it a day. I dunno. Feels deceptive, IMHO.

I'm not actually on the dev team, but Firaxis did catch flak for the cheating AI. That and many elements of the game being on rails with only the illusion that they were simulations were seen as the game's weak points, but they crafted it for a specific play experience.

It was known that the game did this, and the team removed most of it, some parts just snuck through in the first release.

[Viya]

I'm not actually on the dev team, but Firaxis did catch flak for the cheating AI. That and many elements of the game being on rails with only the illusion that they were simulations were seen as the game's weak points, but they crafted it for a specific play experience.

It was known that the game did this, and the team removed most of it, some parts just snuck through in the first release.

Yea, that is pretty bad. I figured out why it upset me so much. This is like playing a game of Poker against the computer and the AI changes a card just to win...and I notice that the deck shouldn't have had anymore of those cards. It also creates the problem of trust. This is a simulation game with a set of rules. If the AI is cheating on this....why should I trust the RNG or hit percentages or anything else?

[Devon_v]

I'm not actually on the dev team, but Firaxis did catch flak for the cheating AI. That and many elements of the game being on rails with only the illusion that they were simulations were seen as the game's weak points, but they crafted it for a specific play experience.

It was known that the game did this, and the team removed most of it, some parts just snuck through in the first release.

Yea, that is pretty bad. I figured out why it upset me so much. This is like playing a game of Poker against the computer and the AI changes a card just to win...and I notice that the deck shouldn't have had anymore of those cards. It also creates the problem of trust. This is a simulation game with a set of rules. If the AI is cheating on this....why should I trust the RNG or hit percentages or anything else?

Vanilla was never a simulation. The RNG cheated in your favor if you had too much "bad luck" on a mission. It was just presented in the style of the original game (UFO, the old DOS game) but in many ways was a modern "crafted experience" style game with some simulation elements. EU/EW were like this too, Long War 1 removed most of the cheats back then too.

[Viya]

Vanilla was never a simulation.

Sorry...that was supposed to be STRATEGY game, not simulation.

[Manifest]

At least then, people would not wasting tons of their time trying to position their teams close to objectives when in fact, none of that mattered. I would have just ambushed the first pod and called it a day. I dunno. Feels deceptive, IMHO.

While Firaxis didn't explain this behavior ingame, they didn't try to hide this behavior outside of it, they did come out and explain it. It was relatively well known and accepted, concealment just wasn't supposed to be THAT important in the game, but it was still a buff to the player. Overall even if the aliens were in your intercept path, you could still get a much better position on the pods and find out where they were to plan ahead. Your positioning definitely did matter.

It's not that big of a deal because you could/and should win every mission through combat in Vanilla, while LW2 was balanced around making it very hard/unnecessary to win everything by combat which is why they must buff stealth.

[Devon_v]

Vanilla was never a simulation.

Sorry...that was supposed to be STRATEGY game, not simulation.

No, you used the right word, I mean that while the game gives the impression of simulating events, it's really just picking from weighted random options preset for different situations.

The AVATAR Project for instance. Firaxis spoke of "the aliens playing their own game", and you would have to outmaneuver them. But the AP is just a set of pips that build up until you beat a certian mission. The aliens aren't actually simulating anything, you just pass X days and make a roll on a chart and oh, new facility in Australia. It creates the feel of actually playing against the AI, but the more you play vanilla the more you realize that nothing is emergent, nothing is changed by what you do, the game just follows its script.

That's the key difference in what the Pavonis team did. They gave ADVENT an actual strategic simulation. You can effect the strength of ADVENT's global forces. ADVENT makes decisions in response to your actions. It's not a super complex simulation, but it actually gives the aliens their own game to play against you.