Has anyone else felt like Long War 2 is actually shorter than vanilla? No doubt there are more missions, more things to manage, and more going on, that make it generally feel longer, but in reality it actually seems shorter in terms of in-game calendar time than a vanilla XCom 2 campaign. Sure, you can finish a vanilla campaign pretty quickly, and in probably a shorter in-game time than a LW2 campaign, but being that I liked the longer campaigns anyways, I generally dragged out my vanilla campaigns a bit longer just to enjoy them. Many of my vanilla campaigns lasted well over a year and often almost 18 months of in-game time. It feels like in LW2, if you aren't getting ready to blitz through the golden path missions in about six to seven months, then you're probably up a river of excrement in a Native American watercraft with no means of propulsion.
The DEs seem to pile on rapidly, especially the Tactical Upgrades, constantly forcing you to progress quickly or risk being overwhelmed. Meanwhile the Avatar pips keep piling up, and even though there are more of them than in vanilla and you can get rid of some through facility raids, Waterworld is still piling them on as well giving you an ultimate and irreversible doom counter eventually. Although, I think the DEs stacking will probably be overwhelming before that happens, especially when piled on the ramp up of vigilance, force strength, and available legions for the aliens.
And on the topic of DEs, I'm convinced that not all of them... or to be honest, even half of them... are even associated with a counter mission. It seems every counter mission I've done has only been for Avatar breakthroughs, and maybe a couple of temporary DEs, but never had a counter mission for a Tactical Upgrade. That said, I don't mind that the aliens get Tactical Upgrades, in fact I like it to keep more units more viable against XCom throughout the campaign. But, it would be nice if it didn't show as a DE, knowing that there is not a damn thing you can do to stop them getting the upgrade. If I knew there was a mission to counter them, I'd be ok with that. You're never going to counter all of them, and countering Tactical Upgrades could simply delay them... let them come back later and once again I may have to choose which ones I can reasonably delay or would rather delay. Or even, provide missions that remove certain Tactical Upgrades after they've occurred, but again, allow them to come back later. "Commander, we've found the facility where the Formidable armors are made, we can hit it and hinder their production." They may build a new facility soon enough, but at least I've knocked them back a bit for now. If that were happening repeatedly throughout the campaign... I get to delay a Tactical Upgrade for a bit, they get some, I get to knock a couple off, they get them back later, I get to knock off some other one, ad infinitum... that seems to me to play more into the Long War concept of back and forth between XCom and the aliens, and extend out the war.
Anyways, the short of it is that for a "Long War" effort, it feels like I have to rush in order to stay ahead of the seemingly uncounterable Tactical Upgrades and the ramp up of alien strength on top of the Avatar counter. It would be nice to see the alien strength not ramp up quite so quickly, in the form of the speed that vigilance and force strength accumulates in a region and the speed at which the aliens increase their available legions. Basically, slow down the alien progress just a bit. Also, provide a system by which aliens get Tactical Upgrades, we get to counter them (both before and after they get them), they try to get them back, etc... so that we can draw the war out longer with an enjoyable back and forth. Make it a Long War, because right now it feels to me like an even shorter war, just with more stuff packed into it.
All that said, I do love the mod overall (well, except Protect Datatap... I'd rather punch myself in the nuts for an hour than run those, and I've basically given up on doing those at all... four rebels with laser weapons are not holding off a hive queen and her minions on turn one... ever).
Long War2 is Short War?
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LordYanaek
- Posts: 940
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm
Re: Long War2 is Short War?
gravityd9 wrote:It feels like in LW2, if you aren't getting ready to blitz through the golden path missions in about six to seven months, then you're probably up a river of excrement in a Native American watercraft with no means of propulsion.
The DEs seem to pile on rapidly, especially the Tactical Upgrades, constantly forcing you to progress quickly or risk being overwhelmed. Meanwhile the Avatar pips keep piling up, and even though there are more of them than in vanilla and you can get rid of some through facility raids, Waterworld is still piling them on as well giving you an ultimate and irreversible doom counter eventually.
Given this is on Commander difficulty, if you're playing Legend you might have to rush more which is strange given Vanilla Legend was also the "Marathon mode" of XCom2 but you can definitely play more than 6 months.
The trick is to understand how to slow down Avatar rather than hope to remove all the "pips". Each point of global vigilance > global ADVENT strength slows down every avatar pip by 10 hours. If you mess with ADVENT seriously (doing ambush missions and liberation) they'll be busy reinforcing their troops rather than working on Avatar. I have approx 70% slowdown and other players reported more than 100% slowdown.
And on the topic of DEs, I'm convinced that not all of them... or to be honest, even half of them... are even associated with a counter mission. It seems every counter mission I've done has only been for Avatar breakthroughs, and maybe a couple of temporary DEs, but never had a counter mission for a Tactical Upgrade.
They do show occasionally but it's not guaranteed you'll see them. The trick is that unlike Vanilla, DE missions can spawn in regions you have no contact with. When this happens you simply have no way to detect them. Even if they are in regions you have contacted, there is no guarantee you'll detect those missions.
Well, you definitely have to keep your research up to date but you don't need to rush the objectives if you want to play longer or need more time to get your plasma weapons before assaulting waterworld.Anyways, the short of it is that for a "Long War" effort, it feels like I have to rush in order to stay ahead of the seemingly uncounterable Tactical Upgrades and the ramp up of alien strength on top of the Avatar counter.
There have been discussions of missions to remove discovered tactical upgrades. Last i checked the devs were considering the option but wanted to find an interesting way of implementing those. They are still working hard on the mod even thought their contract with 2K is now finished (they have already been paid) so don't loose hopeBasically, slow down the alien progress just a bit. Also, provide a system by which aliens get Tactical Upgrades, we get to counter them (both before and after they get them), they try to get them back, etc... so that we can draw the war out longer with an enjoyable back and forth. Make it a Long War, because right now it feels to me like an even shorter war, just with more stuff packed into it.
Re: Long War2 is Short War?
Oh, I'm definitely not trying to remove all of the pips of the Avatar project. I understand that isn't going to happen, and I understand slowing them down on it. Honestly, the Avatar project is the least of the issues. It's mostly the ramp up of ADVENT strength so quickly, and the piling up of DEs that seems to push you to the finish faster than I would have expected from the mod. Like I said, I find it odd that the actual timeline of my LW2 campaigns so far seem to be shorter than my vanilla campaigns, even though there are certainly more missions and more things packed into that timeline.
And to be clear, none of those mechanics bother me in and of themselves. The part that bothers me is that for a "Long War" effort, I feel like you get to a point relatively earlier in LW2 than in vanilla where you really are just at a rush point to the finish. That just seems odd for a mod whose goal would seem to be to extend the campaign out for a more prolonged guerilla war. Quite literally, a simple slow down of the rate at which the mod progresses the vigilance and ADVENT strength build up would seem to be all that's required to extend the campaign to an actual longer war. Combine that with the ability to play back and forth with the Tactical Upgrades, and I really think that would do the trick.
As for countering the DEs, I get the mechanics, and I understand that there would be missions to counter them in areas I haven't contacted yet. However, I find it odd that in campaigns where I have much of the map contacted, I still have yet to see one counter mission for a Tactical Upgrade DE. It seems like those are just going to happen, period. The only events I've ever been able to counter have been Breakthroughs or the occasional temporary DE, which are 99% of the time "hidden events". I find it high unlikely that in four campaigns (three successful, one failed first "learning" campaign), with almost all regions contacted in three of those campaigns, that not once have I seen a counter to a Tactical Upgrade. And maybe a handful of them have had counter missions, and I've just had the seemingly ridiculously bad RNG to not detect them either through lack of intel or in a region I hadn't contacted. However, I find it beyond reasonable belief that all of the Tactical Upgrade DEs have had an associated counter mission, and yet I've managed to find not a single one in three successful campaigns.
And to be clear, none of those mechanics bother me in and of themselves. The part that bothers me is that for a "Long War" effort, I feel like you get to a point relatively earlier in LW2 than in vanilla where you really are just at a rush point to the finish. That just seems odd for a mod whose goal would seem to be to extend the campaign out for a more prolonged guerilla war. Quite literally, a simple slow down of the rate at which the mod progresses the vigilance and ADVENT strength build up would seem to be all that's required to extend the campaign to an actual longer war. Combine that with the ability to play back and forth with the Tactical Upgrades, and I really think that would do the trick.
As for countering the DEs, I get the mechanics, and I understand that there would be missions to counter them in areas I haven't contacted yet. However, I find it odd that in campaigns where I have much of the map contacted, I still have yet to see one counter mission for a Tactical Upgrade DE. It seems like those are just going to happen, period. The only events I've ever been able to counter have been Breakthroughs or the occasional temporary DE, which are 99% of the time "hidden events". I find it high unlikely that in four campaigns (three successful, one failed first "learning" campaign), with almost all regions contacted in three of those campaigns, that not once have I seen a counter to a Tactical Upgrade. And maybe a handful of them have had counter missions, and I've just had the seemingly ridiculously bad RNG to not detect them either through lack of intel or in a region I hadn't contacted. However, I find it beyond reasonable belief that all of the Tactical Upgrade DEs have had an associated counter mission, and yet I've managed to find not a single one in three successful campaigns.
Re: Long War2 is Short War?
On my current campaign I've managed to counter a fair deal or Dark Events by having 4 intel + scientist (rest hiding) in my high strenght havens instead of supply rebels. Off the top of my head I managed to stop Tactical: Shredder. And a bunch of Hidden events.
Re: Long War2 is Short War?
I think you're generally right. For another thing, I've noticed that grave or even light wounds are actually far more problematic in LW2 than I ever found them in vanilla. Even being out for 6 days can feel like an eternity considering how many missions you might want to use that soldier for are going to pop during that time.
Re: Long War2 is Short War?
I think the thing that makes long war long isn't necessarily the progression of the in game calendar. It's that you're running around 10x more missions each month. And many of those missions take much longer to complete due to larger enemy counts and/or difficulty.
So the name Long War seems highly appropriate.
So the name Long War seems highly appropriate.